Abacus Life, Inc. Price & Performance (ABL)

Saying that, if you remove the revenues from Ross Offshore, there was a slight increase organic growth across the organization. That was in different parts, while at the same time, we had a decrease in revenues across OWC, which you'll see more details on in a moment, So it was a mixed bag in terms of revenue growth. We had some down in the offshore wind, we had some up in the oil and gas, Even that was quite different across the globe terms of The Americas versus Asia and so on and so forth. So it was another mixed quarter But overall revenue wise, was an okay end to the year. But Q4 kind of mirrored the rest of 2024 in terms of a very volatile market that we're in, Some parts of the oil and gas side saw some good high points. Also some low points and also we saw offshore wind being very much pushed to the right hand side. So Q4 ended the same way really as the rest of 2024. Although there are some bright spots, which I'll come on to a little bit later. In terms of the EBIT, a marginal increase over our Q2 figures.

We closed the quarter at $3,100,000 with a margin of about 3.6%. Again, quite a mixed bag. We had offshore wind, which was down. We also had a reduction in our utilization in the ABL segment of the organization, of course brought some of the margins down. But saying that we had a very good results in both AGR and Longitude, which brought some of the margin back up. So the margin was kind of a bit like the rest of the business, quite a mixed bag. But overall, these were the results in terms of the EBIT and in terms of the revenues. In terms of the net cash position, we closed at $4,800,000 This is down over the quarter, but that has also due to the payment of dividend during the quarter of just over $5,000,000 So there was an increase in the cash but obviously a decrease once you take out the dividend. Finally, we also had a very active quarter in terms of M and A. And in fact, 2024 overall was quite active with M and A as we continued into 2025. We announced the acquisition of Hydromod, which I'll talk about in a moment, and also the acquisition of Tech Consults, which we will actually close in [indiscernible] So it was quite active at the end, and we'll talk about that in a moment.

But people are going to ask how do we see 2025? Because this is 2024, it's gone by. It was a tricky year. If I'm honest with you, there are things we should have done Maybe there were some actions we should have taken earlier. I think we've said that in Q2. Some of the actions that we took in particularly in Q3, Q2 and Q3 have started to flow through And hence, how do we see 2025? And I think the answer is in our dividend. [indiscernible] agreed with the board yesterday that we would like to increase this dividend from 0.4% to 0.45 per share. So that kind of gives you an indication of how we see things going forward how we see our markets going forward, how we see our operations in view of the changes we made during 2024. So just talking very briefly before I hand across to Stuart, we did announce the acquisition of Proper Marine in Brazil in Rio De Janeiro, This was a company founded in 2010. It's a pure engineering play. It's in marine operations. It's in engineering design. It's in And if for some of you will remember, the story of Longitude, It's a part of our business that's one of the smallest parts, but highly profitable.

And we want to find ways to grow longitude continue to push our engineering services and Proper Marine was a perfect acquisition for us down in Rio De Janeiro. One of the hotspots in oil and gas is still in Brazil. And I think they're very, very well placed. We'll talk more about proper marine as we move forward. But this acquisition was announced in Q4, and we closed it in the January. And last but not least is Tech Consult. So this is a little bit early. We've only announced it in Q1, so this has got nothing to do with our Q4 results. But it continues that growth with AGR. We had an opportunity to acquire Tech Consult. It brings another 200 professionals into the organization. It continues to take our push into here in Norway. And more into the resourcing. So Tech Consult was announced in in February. And the plan is to close Tech Consult in early April. So you'll get to hear more about that when we do the Q1 results. So that's the mixed bag. I will come back and talk a little bit more a little bit later, but for now, I'll hand across to Stuart who will give you more detail on the financials.

Thank you, Reven, and good morning, everybody. Before I go into the financials, let me just pick up on the acquisitions that we [indiscernible] More recently. So in terms of proper marine an acquisition we closed in January of this year. So $4,000,000 in terms of purchase price. In terms of consideration for that, we paid half of that in [indiscernible] then half of that is coming through shares. No shares will be paid out over the next five years. This is part of the longitude business as Reuben has mentioned. We had about 100,000 of transaction costs associated with this. And obviously, our first point of consolidation for Proper Marine will be the Q1 results we come back to in a couple of months' time. And then in terms of tech consult, so an acquisition announced in February, we'll actually close this probably in April. So consolidation from Q2 going forwards. Overall purchase price was $3,900,000 so 43,100,000.0 and a consideration here is predominantly cash but also seller's credit. So for a year, we've got £1,000,000 that we hold back then paying twelve months time after the closing So you'll start to see those coming through in the Q1 and the Q2 results as we go into 2025.

Going back to the Q4 and the numbers, I guess this is just the snapshot we show in terms of the overall business. Couple of points to note, I guess, AGR is now sitting there from a revenue perspective the largest part of the business. Because of the consolidation of Ross Offshore in Q4 as we had in Q3. It also has marine operations going through there. So I'll come back to the impact of marine operations when I go through some of the details. But that makes the revenue, I guess, a bit more lumpy when we look at the AGR segment going forward. As Ruben mentioned from the ABLs point of view, a bit of a downturn in terms of overall utilization during the quarter, so lower utilization there. We've also had some bad debt in that period. But I'll come back to that when we go through the details. OWC is a roundabout breaking for the quarter. They've taken some cost reduction measures during that quarter and we'll continue to do that through Q1 of twenty twenty five to manage the cost base relative to where the market is at present. As we've indicated before, we don't see an upturn in the market five.

And then Longitude is the smallest part of the business. But lumpy in terms of project completions. So we have a very strong quarter here in terms of 34% EBIT margin. During that quarter. Our corporate costs were about 6.6%, So that gives us 3.6% in terms of the overall EBIT margin in the quarter. And that's comparable to 6% as the guidance through the cycle that we get to the market with the mix of businesses we have at present. Turning then to a bit more of the detail. I mentioned from an ABL perspective, lower utilization during the quarter. That's reflected in terms of where we are in terms of margin compared to this time of last year. We also had £400,000 of bad debt in the ABL sector. Large part of that is attached to Pemex in Mexico. So our policy is that after we have a receivables outstanding for twelve months, we make a full provision. So we've taken that provision in Q4. We still do see with the unwinding of payments coming out of Pemex that we'll start to recover that in hopefully in the first half of twenty twenty five.

And then with the lower utilization, I guess predominantly that focus around the Americas region. Where during Q4, they've already taken actions to reduce their cost base, which you see the benefits of that as we come into 2025. From an OWC perspective, continued downturn in the market, we've been talking about now for probably four or five quarters. As I mentioned, we don't expect that to recover until the second half of twenty twenty five. Although we have seen a bit of an uptick in terms of our tendering activities more recently. OWC, as I mentioned, has taken cost reduction measures through twenty Q4 of twenty twenty four and there'll be further cost reduction measures as we come into '20 So hopefully, we get that to position a returning to profitability before we see the recovery And the market Longitude, as I mentioned, very strong performance during the quarter. I think if you look at the bottom table with Longitude here, you see in terms of the margin level, how lumpy that business can be dependent on when there are completions happening on the projects. So we're at 34% this quarter. A couple of quarters before we were at 10%.

So that's the lumpiness of that business. And finally, AGR, performing quite well. So we have the integration of Ross Offshore during this quarter. The underlying business that we had from AGR before Ross is performing well. From a Ross perspective, we mentioned before, we also acquired [indiscernible] This is where we're chartering a vessel and passing that through to a client. And then we're adding services to that vessel. So we make a good margin in terms of the added services. But the pass through of that cost of the vessel goes at a nil or a very small margin. So when the boat is out and working, you'll see an increase in our revenue. But not attached to the margin. We'll get the margin that comes through through the projects deliverables we have. I think the other thing with that business is actually we got a lot of cash upfront So it will have an impact in terms of working capital. And I think if we've got material cash we're sitting on at the end of the quarter, Because of that, we'll just disclose what that cash is at the time. Turning then to the I guess the abbreviated statements from the income statement, Revenue is up $0.27 Cost operating costs are up 32% That's Ross Offshore coming in, so structurally lower margin business.

The drivers in terms of revenue growth is obviously Ross but underlying that the longer tube business has had a good quarter. So up 30 odd percent. Okay. So that's an EBIT of $2,400,000 You see down below the adjustments we have in terms of our EBIT. So the restructuring costs the AWC business is part of taking out costs. It's also exited the hydrogen consultancy business. So we've taken the cost of that out since it's nonrecurring. M and A costs we provide under IFRS under the operating costs, but we take those out because they're nonrecurring. And then the amortization of PPA intangibles. Goes through the business and we adjust that in terms of our evidence we have done before. So that gives us €3,100,000 in terms of EBIT during the quarter. And as I said, 3.6% in terms of margin. In terms of the cash flow, so our profit for tax at $3,100,000 adjusting for FX, working capital and the non cash items gives us a reasonably strong cash flow position of $5,900,000 during the quarter from an operating perspective, Cash going out of the business, so from investing €1,400,000 going out there in terms of ongoing CapEx projects, but also the conclusion of the Hydromod acquisition.

Which we paid for in Q4. And then from a financing perspective, largely the outflow to shareholders, so €5,200,000 in terms of distribution to shareholders. Coming in the form of 4,900,000.0 in terms of the dividend payment and the remainder in terms of buyback of shares during the quarter. That gives us a net cash outflow during the quarter of £1,900,000 and after adjusting for FX, we're at £19,500,000 cash at the end of the quarter. And then from a balance sheet perspective, not that many movements. We started $19,500,000 cash. Short term borrowings for the RCF facility, we have no drawings on that during the quarter. So that stays the same at €14,600,000 to give us the £4,800,000 of net cash we have. In terms of working capital, the calculation basis here just to remind you, we're making a comparison back to one quarter of revenue whereas historically, we've done the average of the last two quarters. We've made that change because of the number of transactions we have it gives a quicker reflection in terms of the impact of the M and A businesses coming into the ABL Group. We ended at 40% Q4 and term of the working capital ratio.

We still have 30% to 40% in terms of our guidance. But also with the Marine Operations business, that can get some variability in that number. And then finally from me in terms of the dividend payment as Reuben mentioned, the Board decided to recommend 0.45p per share for the first half of twenty twenty five. Which will equate to €5,300,000 in terms of dividend payment out to shareholders. To be approved at the AGM on the May 28. And this will actually be in the form of a repayment of pay via capital. Rather than a straight distribution. And in terms of finishing 2024, over the year, we paid at 0.08p per share. Over the period, which equates to 9,700,000 shareholders. With that, I'll pass you back to Reuben to take us through the outlook.

Thank you. Firstly, for people online, if you have any questions, sorry, I should have mentioned this earlier, please put your questions in the chat room and we will answer them at the end. So just before I get into the outlook, let's talk a little bit about the operation as well. Because you've seen the slight margin decline across ABL. And like I said, maybe we should have taken some actions earlier. [indiscernible] not perfect in everything that we did. But we have taken actions. And like I said, with the dividend that we're now forecasting for 2025, subject to the AGM we believe in what we've done. We believe in the operations that we have. We believe in the changes that we've taken. What you see here, we've continued to increase the headcount Year on year, quarter on quarter within ABL segment. Yet at the same time, we did have some decline in the utilization and hence, we why we had the decline in the EBIT. In Q4, but we have taken the right actions We see that the way the market is going, we're going to talk about the market in a moment, And I think what we're doing is the right way ahead.

If you look in OWC, you will see a decrease in the headcount. But that also includes the operation Golden Eagle, which is our onshore technical due diligence in The Americas, where we did increase the headcount but the net effect is still a reduction in headcount. And that's because we continue to make the change in OWC If you saw on the numbers, the actual revenue is down by close to $2,000,000 $1,000,000 year on year. The EBIT is flat. [indiscernible] So we continue to make these changes The question was, did we take them early enough The answer is probably no. We should have taken some of these actions earlier. We hold our hands up to that. But the actions we've taken, we hope to see some of that coming through very early, and we'll talk about that in a moment. And the increase in AGR was predominantly through Ross Offshore, and Longitude is flat, although we will be bringing in proper marine in there as well. One other comment to make as well is about our use of freelancers. During this period, we've tried to reduce the use of freelance That's the ability that we have to try and take out these lumps and humps doesn't look like there's been a large decrease, but actually the decrease is bigger than you think.

Because they're bringing in a Vross offshore, brings in a lot more freelancer base. So if you take the net effect of pro form a, there's actually a reasonable reduction in our freelancer usage during Q4. So how does things look going forward? There's a lot of mixed discussion about renewables, in particular, a lot of mixed discussion about offshore wind. Where is it going, OWC was very focused in offshore wind. And we've tried to divest away from that and tried to put more into onshore wind [indiscernible] battery and other type of renewable energies. And we continue that push But the offshore wind is still there. There are some very good bright spots you look at the level of bidding that we've had over the last four, five months, there is a big increase in the bidding. If you look at our win rates, there's a big increase in the win rates. Which will go into 2025. If you remember, we talked about slipping this into the back end of 2025. And at the moment, we believe that that was how it will continue. And as I said, if you just look at the win rates, if you look at our bidding rates, it kind of suggests that.

Remember, offshore wind is not only about the European it is also across Asia, it's down in South America and so on. So it's a mixed bag. The graph still show the same thing. The long term is still the same thing. ABL is here for the long term. OWC is here for the long term. And we believe in what we're doing is the right way ahead. And like I said, we are starting to see some some light at the end of the tunnel in offshore wind. But if you look into oil and gas, that's also been a bit of a mix bag over 2024. We monitor both CapEx and OpEx spending In particular, we look at the rig counts and the rig fleet utilization There is a decline the rig fleet utilization At one point at the end of last year, middle of last year, everything was going in the rig related activity. And then all of a sudden, you saw Aramco drop some of their rigs and then the further drop in rigs and so on. But those rigs have been redistributed They've gone into Asia, Some of them have gone to West Africa. It's even gone down to Brazil.

So the activity is there. It shows a small decline. In terms of the floater side of the business. Relatively flat. But overall, the business is still very healthy. Going forward. And I'm listening to other stories around the globe of how you see the rig utilizations and it looks quite steady going into 2025. And the same on the spending as well. Still a lot of projects which are in flow at the moment. There's some new projects going on in other parts of the globe. Australia is still very strong. Brazil is still very North Sea here in Norway is very strong. So we still see the outlook as being very positive in the oil and gas side of the business going into 2025. So just to wrap up in a summary, it was a bit of a mixed bag. Think 2024 for ABL Group was a mixed bag. Between a very volatile oil and gas market between a decline in the offshore wind market we had to take change. We had to, at times, put the brakes on and make those changes. And we have done that. The question is did we do it early enough? The answer is probably no.

But we've made those changes. And we continue to make those changes to get our EBIT and our EBIT margin up We've had an increase from Q3 over Q2. Q4 over Q3. And we go and we're very positive with the way things are going into 2025. I think with the fact that we've announced the dividend subject to the AGM, being an increase next year tells you how we believe in our operations and how we believe in the markets. The renewable market is still not through all the downturn yet. There are still a lot of things to be done, particularly in the offshore wind space. But we are seeing fruit coming through. And the oil and gas space just continues. Whether it might be in Australia or Brazil or The Middle East, we're still seeing good action. So a lot of things that we need to do. We're going to integrate Hydromod One of our acquisitions last year, we're going to integrate Poppa Marine we're going to close and then integrate Tech Consult And we continue to look for acquisitions. We continue to look for the ability to buy more companies.

One of the other actions, which is not on here, was that actually the last three or four acquisitions, we've actually funded with our own cash. We haven't gone out to the market. We haven't raised additional funding. We've used our own cash. Which is different than where we were a couple of years ago. Get that funding. So mixed bag for 2024, mixed bag for Q4, but there is improvement. And we continue to see the signs of that improvement. Going into 2025. So That's how we'll end. I don't know if there's any questions online questions from the room, but thank you very much for your attention this morning.

We can start with questions online. So could you provide some more color on the relatively weak margin in the ABL segment?

That was these actions which maybe we should have taken. The oil and gas market a good market. It's a strong market. It's a positive market. But it's had its ups and downs. Like I said, you had Saudi Arabia looks like the rockstar and then bump 30 odd rigs go out the market. So we recruited and we continue to recruit. You see the headcount continue to recruit in Q3, Q4, Q2. Every quarter, we continue to increase that headcount. The market that we see and saw ahead But at the same time, there were some moving of rigs of the projects went a little bit to the right, and that immediately started to see a down utilizations. A downturn of 4%, 5% in our utilization makes a big impact on EBIT. So it's a mix between we continue to recruit, and then we saw a decrease in our utilization Now we've had to make that change going into 2025 to get that utilization back up again. So Daxian, should we have recruited as fast as we did, should we continue that recruitment in line of how we saw the market. I think the answer is yes. The question still is should we recruit as fast?

Got to get the utilization back up again. And that's the reason why we had the decrease in the EBIT of ABL. The next one, ABL has been on a steady decline in terms of EBIT in the last four quarters. Is this a trend?

Well, it looks like a trend, obviously. But again, like I said, if we had not done that recruitment, the EBIT, actually the margin in particular would have gone up. And the EBIT would have gone up. We had brought more headcount to take what we believed is the market If I look at the we don't break it down here, but if I look at the segments, the regions of ABL ABL, ABL Asia is doing very, very well. ABL in Middle East is doing very, very well. ABL in Europe has been quite steady. But we have seen a decline across The Americas. And then we've been impacted as well by the bad debt provision The Americas also. So it's not a decline of ADL. I won't say that. And I won't say that there is a decline in ABL overall. What I will say is there's been peaks and troughs in the regions of ABL. And we're having to deal with that, make those changes. Those changes are being implemented now. So it's not a trend.

Looks like a trend. But it's It's not. And we are doing the right things to fix it to get our utilizations back up to get our EBIT back up. And we will put a lot of focus on that going into 2025.

You have done a string of acquisitions over the last few years. Revenues and share counts are increasing, but net profits are falling. Is there something wrong with the operational model?

No. We wouldn't do the acquisitions if we didn't think it was good for our model. Need to take away if you look at what we do, when we buy an acquisition, why do we do it? We do it because we want to strengthen our position in a particular market. We want to strengthen our position in a So if you look at the acquisition of Proper Marine into Longitude, we continue to strengthen Longitude. If you look at the acquisition of Ross Offshore, into AGR, it strengthens AGR's position but any acquisition you do takes time. It's not you flick a switch, you get acquisition, you get the EBIT, all these great It takes time. You've got to integrate a company. You've got to integrate the cultures of the company. So you will see that coming through. We've done three or four acquisitions in the last twelve months. But we've made the right acquisitions to continue to grow our business. But at the same time, we were recruiting people organically. You have the organic growth and you have the inorganic growth. And maybe we recruited too fast, maybe we recruited too hard, and that's impacted our EBIT. And that's down to our performance and that's down to us to make those changes.

Myself and the management of ABL Group will continue to make those changes to get IEBIT back up. But the acquisitions we're doing are the right acquisitions. To really put our footprint in the sand whatever it is that we do, whether or not that's an AGR segment or engineering segment, we will continue to do it, but we need to continue to monitor our utilizations as well.

I think we have covered the questions online. So we can open up for questions from the audience. I can start. It sounds like you're more optimistic to the of of a market upturn in the second half of twenty twenty five. How should we think about the OWC margin going forward through through the year?

So we've set the targets and tell you exactly what that target is, but we've set a target. It is not zero. It is not to be loss making. It is not to be in the single low digits. That's not what we want as an organization. [indiscernible] We've had to remove we've had to remove people from the organization. I'm not sure yet the offshore winders flick switch and back on the way up. But we have been we have been better at the way we do our business But there is light at the end of the tunnel offshore wind. If you look at the bidding, the bidding a big ramp up in bidding. Is a big ramp up in our win rate So I don't think Offshore Winders still is out of it. I think they've hit the bottom. Think we're starting to see offshore wind come out of where they were. It's the first major downturn in offshore wind ever. Solar has been through it, onshore wind has been through it, but offshore wind has never been through it. So this is offshore wind coming out and fixing themselves. That's not only for OWC, but for the offshore wind market generally.

So I think it is better I still believe that the second half of the year, we will see some improvement. But I see our own winning I see our own bidding That's how I can gauge it, not necessarily on the results. The results are the the action of us reducing headcounts. Or increasing utilization going forward is what's going forward is important and the win rate that we have And the bidding that we have shows an improvement So that's why we're more positive about it. So it's not to be running at zero. Not to be running at low single digit EBIT. Is not the plan of this company. But we need to make those adjustments to get to where we want to be. But it's not where it is now. So without guiding you, which I'm not prepared to do yet, We need to see more improvement. And we'll continue to make the changes.

Final one from me. And going after OWC, question, You have taken measures in cutting costs and reducing headcount. Can you elaborate a little bit more about what cost measures you've implemented and are trying to implement?

It's not one. I mean, there's so many. Across what 44, 45 countries now. There's a lot of things that you can do. First of all, the main one is utilization. We've got to get our utilization That's the key to this. It's there's a lot of cost saving measures that we can take. The way we can be more efficient with the way we use our time, Obviously, there's travel costs. There's a lot of different costs that you can do that we want to try and clean up Going to conferences, flights and so on, use our network better. The main cost saving is to reduce some of that headcount. And get us more utilized. It's all about the utilization. 1% utilization makes a huge difference for this company. So we've got to get this utilization up. And that's the change that we're making right now. Started making it in Q3. We made more changes in Q4. Continue to make in Q1. But that's the main thing. And the question should we started earlier? I think we have to put our hands up as a management and say that we didn't take the change quick enough But we're doing it now.

We started it in Q3 is doing more in Q4, but other cost saving measures are there as well. Travel, general overhead, systems, HR, IT, all the other things which are there. Just to keep cleaning up that cost. And even when you acquire a company, you merge offices. I don't know how many legal entities this company has had hundreds of legal entities as we continue to buy companies. You've got to clean up this Every legal entity has audit fees. Every legal entity has finance fees and bank accounts. Got to keep cleaning them up. Reduce this overhead, within the organization, and that's happening as well at the moment.

Will you do going forward? Is there a lot of cost to be taken out? So proper marine in Brazil is standalone in Brazil. It is going to be integrated into Longitude. We can't bring the two offices together. It's not possible. If you look at Proper Marine's office, I mean, in terms of integrating them it's not like we can get one big office overnight. That's not going to happen. So I'm not sure there's a lot of cost savings necessarily with Proper Marine. Yes, they'll come onto our IT system. Yes, they will come into our ERP system and so on. But there won't be a lot of cost savings in Proper Marine. The main thing for Proper Marine is can you use them for the work we do in Singapore or in Asia and deliver it in Brazil. We're going to get out of a proper marine. Although I have to say they're very busy with their own backlog and utilization actually very, very good in Proper Marine. So I don't know how much capacity they will have. Question is can we grow proper marine in Brazil? To help the rest of Longitude? That's the plan for them.

If you look at Tech Consult, They're in Bergen. We're in Bergen. There will be some cost savings in bringing offices together. But not a lot. The main thing for Tech Consult is to bring the databases. I think they have a database of 16,000, 17,000 people And when we merge the two databases, we'll have over 23,000 people in the database. So it's not necessarily a cost savings when we get tech consult. It's more about how can we grow the business, the revenues and the EBIT we're bringing on Tech Consults. So each one has a different different thing. Some of them you can get more cost savings, some of them you get more synergy working together. I think in these cases, it's more about the revenue synergies than the cost savings. Bringing them that's what I think, but won't stop us from trying to reduce costs. Do that as well as we if we can, but I think they're limited. In both cases.

And in terms of the overall margin, I mean, you mentioned or you did mention [indiscernible] Low single digit target for OWC and at the same time 6.5% operating margin margin over the cycle, right? I mean, can you put any sort of timeline here for that? I mean, Yes.

I mean, it's interesting. Just watching January as an example, Stuart talked about the lumpiness of the boat. So this boat brings on a lower revenue and very, very little margin. It's something that we're going to have to figure out as we keep presenting these figures to you. And obviously, Ross is a structurally different business than ABL. ABL should be back into the 20s. That's where they were. But Ross is not going to be in 20%. That's not going to happen. HR is not going to get to 20% EBIT margins. I think AGR and ROS together right now are actually doing quite well. And if you remove the boat out of the numbers that business is actually very good. If you look at when we bought them, they were down in the 3% margin 3%, 4%. Now running at seven if you move the boat, even higher. So I think that's doing quite well. Longitude goes up and down. One minute is 35%, next minute is 10. But it's a good business. It's a very solid business. And we're going to try and remove some of these peaks and troughs by expanding longitude. The ABL one is the one Right now, it's down in 2015, twenty sixteen.

It needs to get back to 20. And I think when you combine all these business together and of course, OWC has been running at zero that team mean loss making, And if we can get that back to where it needs to be, even the high single digit numbers we'll get back to those numbers. We've said six and I think 6.5 is what we guided, correct, 6.5. Through the cycle. We still believe that. But a lot of that, of course, now with AGR becoming the largest single revenue generator in the company, that brings the overall margin down. But there's no reason why we can't get this company back to where it needs to be.

With those four segments where they used to be. But we need to make the change, keep making the change. I think you look out the window, you see the renewables and the wind space going really down. You see oil and gas really, you're not quite sure what's happening day by day, whether or not you're in Brazil or Australia. Our job is to keep monitoring this make the changes within the organization, to get our margins back up That's what we will aim on during 2025. [indiscernible] Okay. Then we will stop there. Thank you very much, everyone. And I look forward to seeing you all again in a few months' time.

Thank you.