Better Home & Finance Holding Company Price & Performance (BETR)

Certain statements we make today may constitute forward looking statements, within the meaning of federal securities laws that are based on current expectations and assumptions. These expectations and assumptions are subject to risks uncertainties, and other factors as discussed further in our SEC filings. That could cause our actual results to differ materially from our historical results. We assume no responsibility to update forward looking statements other than as required by law. During today's discussion, management will discuss certain non GAAP financial measures, we believe are relevant in assessing the company's financial performance. These non GAAP financial measures should not be considered replacements for and should be read to with our GAAP results. These non GAAP financial measures are reconciled to GAAP financial measures in today's earnings release and investor presentation. Both of which are available on the Investor Relations section of Better's website and when filed in our Annual Report on Form 10 ks filed with the SEC. More information as of and for the period ended 12/31/2024 will be provided upon filing our annual report on Form 10 ks with the SEC. I will now turn the call over to Vishal.

Thank you, Hana, and welcome to our fourth quarter and full year 2024 earnings call. We appreciate everyone joining us today and for your continued support as we drive towards our mission to make homeownership better, faster, and easier for our customers by building a technology that revolutionizes the homeownership experience. We continue to make good progress towards our vision in which every customer can seamlessly buy, sell, refinance, insure and improve their home [indiscernible] online, instantly. I'd like to start by highlighting some of our key achievements. We went into 2024 with the goal of leaning into growth and AI to drive increased volume and revenue balanced with ongoing efficiency improvements diversification of our distribution channels and corporate cost reductions. We executed against these objectives. Growing full year funded loan volume by 19% year over year revenue by 50% year over year, and reducing our adjusted EBITDA losses by 26% year over year. We made some big bets in Tinman AI and launched a distributed retail channel through Neo powered by Better. Both of which are showing early positive momentum. Even in a market that remained challenged with historically low housing affordability, and persistently high mortgage rates we made progress in 2024 against the road map we set out at the start of the year.

For the full year 2024, we did $3,600,000,000 in funded loan volume, dollars 108,000,000 of revenue and had an adjusted EBITDA loss $121,000,000 In the fourth quarter, funded loan volume was $936,000,000 a year over year increase of 77% driven by growth across all three main product categories. Purchase, refinance and second lien loans. On a sequential quarter over quarter basis, funded loan volume was down approximately 10% given normal seasonal slowness in the fourth quarter purchase market. Q4 revenue was $25,000,000 compared to $18,000,000 in the fourth quarter of year and $29,000,000 in the quarter prior. We continue executing on strategies to increase conversion through additional product and services as well as improved sales efficiency to drive higher customer pull through. Through 2024, we continue to increase revenue per loan through pricing and marketing channel, optimization resulting in year over year gain sale margin improvement from 1.95% in 2023 to 2.17% in 2024. As we look forward to 2025 and beyond, our strategic priorities remain largely consistent with those we've discussed with you on prior earnings call. Our first priority is continuing to thoughtfully lean into growth. Against which we showed progress through 2024. In the fourth quarter, year over year funded loan volume growth was driven by increases across all three of our main product categories with home equity products and refinance loans being the largest growth driver.

Drivers. Year over year purchase loan volume increased 25 and refinance loan volume increased 611% from what was a seasonally and historically low quarter at the end of 2023. Our year over year HELOC and home equity loan volume increased 416% in the fourth quarter of twenty twenty four. TransUnion recently reported that the overall number of HELOC and HELOAN originations increased 10% in the third quarter, whereas Better grew origination volume in the third quarter by 619%. So if HELOC market trends remain stable or even improved in q four, we believe that our current triple digit growth is continuing to outpace the industry in the fourth quarter as our superior offering drives gains in market share. On a sequential basis versus Q3, Q4 refinance volume increased 34%. Home equity loan volume increased 3% and purchase loan volume decreased 10% due primarily to seasonally slower home buying in the fourth quarter of the year. While the mortgage market saw improvements in Q4 compared to the same period in 2023, thirty year fixed rate mortgage rates remained in the high six to low 7% range. Putting continued strain on mortgage demand. We expect near term rates to remain elevated driving continued demand for our home equity products.

Our second priority is continuing to reduce expenses and improve operational efficiency. With the goal of reaching profitability in the medium term. In the fourth quarter, total expenses remained approximately flat versus Q3. However, included in these was approximately $17,000,000 of non recurring restructuring expenses attributed primarily to the wind down of our UK businesses as well as approximately $4,000,000 associated with the termination of certain leases. Excluding these one time expenses, total expenses decreased approximately 24% quarter over quarter due to expense management initiatives across all major expense line items we reduced adjusted EBITDA losses by approximately $11,000,000 or 28% in Q4 compared to Q3. Even with lower revenues due to a seasonally slower quarter. Specifically, we decreased our loan origination expenses by 28%. Decreased our compensation related expense by 21%, and decreased marketing and advertising by 27%. Compared to an only 10% decline in volume. Demonstrating the impact of the AI and automation initiatives that drove operating leverage within the business. Utilizing Tinman's capabilities, we have been able to automate time and labor intensive components of the mortgage process and reduce our cost to originate by over 35% of the industry average. We believe our continued investments in technology and AI will significantly drive down cost further resulting in improved operating efficiency and superior customer experience.

Continuing our discussions from the past two quarters around our investments in AI, we are seeing benefits from further expanding Betsy. The first AI voice based loan assistant for The US mortgage industry leverages large language models to take a customer through preapproval and now rate quote and rate lock autonomously. Betsy's program to verbally communicate with consumers to answer mortgage application inquiries and to collect and verify outstanding application data similar functions traditionally performed by sales staff with the goal of enabling faster service times, enhanced self serve capabilities improved customer engagement and greater sales efficiency. In terms of tangible numbers, Betsy went from approximately 5,000 customer interactions in June of twenty twenty four to completing over 115,000 consumer interactions in February of twenty twenty five, a growth rate of over 20x all while we kept increasing the range of functions that Betsy performed. Last quarter, we shared with you an early clip of Betsy interacting with a customer on a call. We are excited to now show you a demonstration of Betsy taking a customer all the way through mortgage rate lock. Which would traditionally have involved separate conversations with up to three sales team members and multiple phases of manual data entry.

Through Tinman technology, this can now be completed % autonomously through AI twenty four seven. Betsy meets the customer anywhere and anytime they want.

Hi. This is Betsy from Better Mortgage on a recorded line. Whom do I have the pleasure of speaking with today?

Hi. This is Corey.

Great to meet you.

Are you looking to buy a new home, refinance, get cash from your home's equity, or can I help with something else?

I was wondering if you could tell me what the HELOC interest rate is today.

The lowest interest rate for a home equity line of credit is currently 7%. Would you like to start an application to find your personalized rate It will only take a few minutes.

Maybe. I'm I'm remodeling my kitchen. Am I allowed to use my HELOC funds to do that? Or what else can I do with the money?

Yes. You can use funds from a home equity line of credit. For remodeling your kitchen. A HELOC provides flexibility, allowing you to use the funds for various purposes, including home improvement. Would you like to start an application for a HELOC?

Yeah. That'd be great. Let's do it.

Wonderful. To start the application, I'll need to confirm your full name. Could you please spell out your first and last name for me?

Yeah. It's Corey, c o r y, and then last name is Smith. S m I t h.

Thank you. To confirm, that c o r y s m I t h Is that correct?

Yep. That's correct.

Great, Corey.

Now could you please provide the property address for the home equity line of credit?

Yeah. It's 67 Dash 110 Clyde Street, in Forest Hills, New York 11375.

Just to confirm, that is 67110 Clyde Street, Forest Hills, New York 11375. Is that correct?

Yep. That's correct.

Is this property your primary residence? A second home, or an investment property?

This is my primary residence.

Thank you.

Could you please provide the estimated value of your property?

Yeah. It's around half a million dollars.

Now could you please provide your email address? I'll spell it back to you to ensure it's correct.

Yeah. It is csmith175@gmail.com.

Thank you. To confirm, that's csmith175@Gmail.com. Is that correct?

Yep. That's perfect.

Would you like to use the phone number you're calling from? To continue the application?

Yeah. That would be perfect.

Do you authorize Better Mortgage to verify your credit with a soft pull? And consent to receive electronic loan documents from us? [indiscernible] Thank you.

To complete your soft credit pull, I'll need the last four digits of your Social Security number. Rest assured, we take your privacy and security very seriously. We funded over $100,000,000,000 in loans, and protecting our borrowers' personal information is our top priority. You can say the numbers out loud or enter them on your keypad. Just let me know when you're done.

Excellent. It's 6666.

Thank you, Corey. Now let's discuss your income. Do you have income from employment self employment, or any other sources?

Yeah. So I have a w two job where I make about a hundred thousand a year, and then I drive for Uber part time. And make maybe $25,000 a year.

Thank you for sharing that. Do you receive any other sources of income such as bonuses, alimony, or rental income?

Nope. That's it.

Thank you for providing your income information. Would you like to add a co borrower to your application?

No. Thank you.

Do you currently have any mortgages on the property?

Yes. I do, actually.

I see a mortgage with PNC mortgage. Is this loan related to 67 To 110 Clyde Street?

Yes. It is.

Is the mortgage with PNC mortgage the primary mortgage on 67 To 110 Clyde Street?

Yes. It is.

Thank you for confirming. Now let's move on to the next loan. I see a $35,000 home equity line credit with Dow Chemical Credit Union. Is this loan related to 67110 Clyde Street?

Yes. It is, actually. Congratulations. It looks like you've been approved. Would you like to lock your rate?

Yeah. That'd be great. Let's do it.

Excellent. First, can you let me know how much cash you would like to receive from your home equity line of credit?

I think we need about $90,000.

Great. Let's find the perfect rate for you. I see you're approved for a home equity line credit with a 7.5% interest rate. This loan comes with $924 in fees. However, if you use your home equity line of credit to pay off your current home equity line of credit with Dow Chemical, There is an option for a 7% interest rate. And this only comes with $234 in fees. How would you like to proceed?

I would like to pay off my Dow Chemical and get the lower interest rate.

Terrific. I've submitted your rate to be locked at 7%. Would you like me to transfer you to your loan consultant?

No. That's okay.

No problem. Please check your email for important documents related to your home equity line of credit. Thank you for trusting Better Mortgage with your home finance. You can reach me 247 if you have any further questions. I'm always here to help.

Awesome. Thank you very much for your help. I appreciate it.

You're very welcome, Corey. I'm glad I could assist you. Have a wonderful day.

You too. Bye bye.

I want to highlight for you what is differentiated about Betsy from other AI bots that you might have seen across financial services. This is not just an FAQ bot or an appointment scheduler. Which we have seen other mortgage companies utilize. Those bots typically perform a single function and interact with users only over chat versus once. The reason for these limitations for other mortgage companies is that they are only connected to a single software system out of the seven to eight systems typically used by most mortgage companies. Additionally, most of these legacy software systems and origination and servicing are built on nineteen eighties architecture. Greatly limiting the functionality of AI tools. Betsy is built on Tinman, is an end to end point of sale system CRM system, pricing engine, eligibility engine, loan origination system, insurance engine, appraisal management platform, QC system and closing platform, all in one. Everything that the customer or our loan teams do is capture in this platform. And every fact about the customer or the property is stored in a centralized fax graph. This enables an LLM to very efficiently have full context and going back and forth across any part of the mortgage process with the consumer.

Like a human would. Most other mortgage companies where they just implement a full stack AI agent experience massive latency pinging information back and forth between the AI agent and the multiple systems involved. Latency that would be so slow that a typical consumer would just tune out. Because of PinMAN's end to end platform, Betsy can handhold customers from initial inquiry through rate lock all the way to fund in a single interface. Another application of AI we have been scaling is using our Tinman AI to assist in performing the functions traditionally done by an underwriter. In particular, qualification of income, assets, credit to prepare an underwriting decision. As you might remember, by automating significant elements of the document collection data extraction, and underwriting calculation, we have been able to grow our one day mortgage product to be over 70% of our mortgage volume. With an average time from lock to commitment lever of eight hours a revolution in mortgage lending when getting a commitment letter can take up to forty five days. In the most recent quarter, we began leveraging AI review to bring the process down to under a minute in certain cases. This is pretty astounding.

We are going from one day mortgage to less than one minute mortgage using AI. Our goal is to grow AI underwriting review to over 75% of our locks by the end of 2025. Dramatically decreasing our fulfillment labor cost per loan and debottlenecking one of the critical areas of the mortgage process. A third area in which we have made significant progress within mortgage underwriting is the intelligent routing of appraisal requirements and AI underwriting of title insurance. Through advances in this process, we have begun enabling instant title and appraisal for a small percentage of our locks. Which we hope to continue increasing over the coming We believe the potential for our customer to be fully underwritten for a mortgage across credit income assets title and appraisal within minutes of going into a contract on a home, is not very far away. The core message is we are pressing harder on the massive advantage that we believe we have with respect to AI agents within our PingVan platform in light of the changes we are seeing in the regulatory climate. We have seen a substantial increase in friendliness towards AI from a regulatory perspective. Over the past few months.

The gloves are off for us with respect to AI. This past month, we implemented Betsy as the primary customer interaction point in one state for refinance loans with the human loan officer being on standby as a guardrail. We believe that Betsy has the potential to reduce sales cost per loan by $2,000 per fund and operations cost by $1,400 per fund which would represent us getting to a fraction of the industry is spending. And we are just getting started. Finishing with our third priority of diversifying our distribution channel through growing our b to b business, we continue to see demand for our technology platform from new partners with strong brands. Who are looking to offer mortgages to their customers in a cost effective way or improve the fulfillment efficiency of their existing mortgage business. First off, I want to start off by updating you on our partnership with Ally Bank. Better and Ally have been engaged in a mortgage partnership for over five years, and we are proud of what the two companies built together to revolutionize white label mortgage technology Around the end of twenty twenty four, Ally made a strategic decision to exit the mortgage business altogether.

And as a result, we began winding down our Ally volume in the fourth quarter. We expect Allied to be fully exited by the end of Q2 of this year. Along side winter seasonality, this wind down contributes to volume being lower in the fourth quarter. Compared to the third quarter of twenty twenty four. Moving on to the growth updates. Last quarter, we announced the launch of Neo Home Loans powered by Better. And I'm excited to report that we are making great early progress towards our goal of diversifying Better's distribution and leveraging Tin Man to power local loan officers by removing friction from their fulfillment process and expanding their capacity to help more customers. Neo powered by Better will also leverage Better's AI technology and digital lead funnel to supercharge Neo's loan officer teams. Who have demonstrated track records in customer service excellence, and strong reputations within the communities they serve. Betsy, individually branded for each retail loan officer at NEO, as well as lead routing of early stage purchase customers from Better D2C channel who can be more effectively served by a loan officer in their neighborhood is expected to dramatically improve efficiency and drive conversion gains across both d to c and our retail distribution channel.

Beginning production in January 2025, we have onboarded approximately 110 neo loan officers across 53 branches. To date, Neo powered by Better has served approximately 220 families equating to $95,000,000 in funded loan loss. On Neo Home Loans, we are seeing an average gain of sale margin of approximately three sixty five basis points. Compared to our better.com gain on sale margin of two seventeen basis [indiscernible] in 2024. With Neo, I'm excited about the unique opportunity to unlock key parts of the market that have historically been challenging for online originators without established local footprints to serve. Specifically in the purchase mortgage segment and for certain loan types like FHA, VA, down payment assistance programs, and buy down programs. Joining me today is Ryan Grant, Co Founder and of Retail Lending at Neo Home Loans who would like to share why he is excited about the opportunity we have ahead of us with Neo powered by Better. Thank you, Vajjal.

Our team here at Neo Home Loans is incredibly excited to now be powered by Better. This partnership is more than just a collaboration. It is a fundamental shift in the mortgage industry. We believe that together, we are creating the most valuable mortgage platform not just for our clients and our business partners, but for every mortgage professional in America. Neo Home Loans was founded on a simple but powerful idea, changing the expectations of what a mortgage company should be. For decades, the mortgage industry is focused on selling debt. Leaving many professionals questioning the real value they provide. And we set out to do more, to guide clients well before they purchase a home, and continuing to proactively support them for decades after helping them build long term wealth.

However, we face significant challenges from an entrenched industry, Outdated technologies made processes inefficient, scalability was costly and limited, We struggled to get our message in front of enough clients. And for local mortgage professionals, the industry lacked financial transparency which created a misalignment of priorities.

These were all major barriers but the partnership of Neo powered by Better is solving them all. That's why we're so proud of this opportunity as it positions us to truly transform the industry. You see, for years, as mortgage professionals, we found success despite technology, not because of it.

And when we visited Better's headquarters, we saw Tinman and met Betsy and we were stunned. Better has built technology that matches human level performance across a range of mortgage tasks something that no one in our industry had seen before. And with this AI powered infrastructure, Neo can now combine the best of both worlds. The speed, efficiency, and automation that clients want with the advice, strategy, and long term commitment from a local mortgage adviser that they need and deserve. This is an absolute game changer. Now our strategy at Neo powered by Better is built on three key beliefs.

First, we will drastically reduce loan costs and increase the scalability of our teammates, which is a major problem for most in the mortgage industry.

With Tinman and Betsy, our teams can efficiently serve more families, with more value and at a much lower cost. This allows us to compete with discount lenders without sacrificing value. Our second key belief is that we can help subsidize the local mortgage professional with lead generation that has become much harder in the past few years. The market has shifted, making it harder for mortgage advisers to find clients that need help.

And when we learned that roughly 30,000 people per month are inquiring with Better about purchasing a home, we knew that our team of highly trained advisers could convert more of these curious prospects into actual homeowners. Now we're going begin scaling lead routing in April, with a short term goal of 10% conversion, is roughly a 500% increase over the current levels, better experiences and B2C channels. We're also excited to be able to connect these homebuyers with the best real estate agents across the country and to be able to help more of their clients as well.

And between the increased lead conversion and working with more of the best agents in our local markets, we expect that the cost of acquiring a client can be drastically reduced. Now our third key belief that by creating the industry's first truly transparent partnership lending model, we can empower local mortgage professionals to have the confidence knowledge and financial understanding to operate at much higher levels. And by doing this, Neo powered by Better is creating a natural alignment of interests between each team member and the organization as opposed to misaligned priorities mortgage professionals have had to deal with for decades prior. And lastly, we are excited to be able to share more about Neo Home Loans powered by Better with local mortgage professionals across the country.

We expect that when they see and start to understand this combination of technology efficiency, scalability, and growth through lead generation and referral partnerships, that the best and brightest will want to partner with us in our efforts to completely change and the mortgage industry. In 2024, our Neo team funded approximately $2,000,000,000 in mortgage volume, while remaining profitable. Now powered by Better, we're positioned to scale even faster. Drive greater profitability and deliver even more impact. Together, we're redefining mortgage lending and this is just the beginning.

Thank you. And with that, I'll turn it back over to you, Vishal.

Thank you, Ryan. We are so pumped to have the Neo team on our platform and as our partners as we disrupt the mortgage industry together. Looking now towards 2025 and beyond, the medium term opportunity is very exciting. We remain focused on enhancing our go to market with growth being our North Star alongside continued expense management and channel diversification. We will continue to invest in Tinman AI to improve the customer experience and further drive down labor costs. Making our platform more efficient and scalable driving the business to profitability in the medium term. With that, let me now turn it over to Kevin Ryan, our Chief Financial Officer who will discuss the quarterly performance and our financial strategy. Kevin?

Thank you, Vishal. As discussed in 2024, even through a continued challenging market environment, we made great progress towards our goals of driving increased volume and revenue, balanced with ongoing expense management and improved efficiency. In the fourth quarter of twenty twenty four, we generated funded loan volume of $936,000,000 revenue of $25,000,000 and an adjusted EBITDA loss of 28,000,000 Total GAAP net loss was approximately $59,000,000 Our fourth quarter funded loan volume was 81% generated through our DTC channel and 19% generated our B2B partner channel. And with 62% purchase, 18% home equity loans and the remainder by dollar volume was refinanced. In addition, we are experiencing early success with our UK bank. Bank of Birmingham, with scaled loan originations over tenfold from December 2023 to December 2024 as we have implemented our technology in The UK. We expect to more than double UK bank originations again in 2025 as we deploy AI with the goal of building the leading AI driven specialist mortgage bank in The United Kingdom. Turning now to our outlook for full year 2025. We remain focused on managing towards profitability in the midterm. And we expect to drive growth through efficiency from Tinman AI distribution channel diversification and optimized marketing.

While balancing these growth expenses with further corporate cost reductions. For the first quarter of twenty twenty five, we expect funded loan volume to be down approximately 10% to 15% compared to the fourth quarter of twenty twenty four. Given continued seasonal slowness and the wind down of our Allied businesses. Which is a reminder made up 29% of our full year 2024 volume, and 19% of our Q4 twenty twenty four volume, and we expect to be only low double digits percent of Q1 volume before fully winding down at some point in the second quarter. We are particularly excited that the neo funded loan volume is pacing pacing ahead of plan, and we expect to do over 90,000,000 of NEO originations in March alone. After February was the first full month of Neo on our platform. As another data point here to put our trends in the context of the industry, the Fannie Mae February housing forecast is overall Q1 market volumes declining 24% quarter over quarter, demonstrating Better's outperformance of the market as a whole in Q1. For the full year 2025, we expect funded loan volume growth in the low to mid double digits percent growth year over year driven by tailwinds from growth initiatives, including Neo powered by Better offset by continued macro headwinds and the loss of the Ally business.

A roughly $900,000,000 headwind. We expect this growth to come particularly in the second and third quarter of the year at which point we expect NEO to be more fully ramped and to benefit from improved seasonal tailwinds. We also expect to further decrease our adjusted EBITDA losses in 2025 as compared to 2024, due to a combination of efficiency gains as well as continued corporate cost reductions. Lastly, we are undergoing to exit our non core U. K. Assets. While continuing to focus on growing the bank. We expect the exiting of three smaller non core UK businesses to start being a benefit to our adjusted EBITDA losses in the second half of twenty twenty five as a result of their disposition. With that, I'll now turn it back to the operator for Q and A. Thank you.

Your first question comes from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG. Your line is open.

Thanks. Good morning. Good to hear from you guys. AI playback was actually pretty interesting. How does the underwriting in the AI technology adjust for the high cost, the limited availability of property insurance?

Like can the tech like adjust for that in any way? And even see that maybe creating an opportunity because there's folks coming into you online and just ways to fulfill that that loan. More efficiently.

Thanks. I mean, there that is a really great question. I mean, what you saw there was was not like a form filler outer engine. There are over 15 different data forks and API calls that went through 45 investors filtered down to five yield investors. And running all the permutations across credit DTI LTV cash out amount and actually insurance quotes closing costs across 3,600 counties in The U. S. We have an insurance engine built in where we deliver instant homeowners insurance to consumers while they're going through a refinance or HELOC process. Or a cash out refi process. So we're talking about things that used to take a lot of people to do. So, like, again, if we think that, like, Todd Besson's gonna be able to get the ten year treasury down, right, back in 2019, we went from $85,000,000 in revenue to $850,000,000 plus in revenue in 2020 over $250,000,000 of EBITDA but the machine was about 50% automated. Right now, Betsy can do basically all of the functions that those refi salespeople were doing back in 2020. At zero, near zero marginal cost. I mean, we're not gonna hire 3,000 salespeople. Right? We don't have to hire 5,000 processors and underwriters.

And we don't have to hire 1,000 insurance agents that we used to have. So I think there's just extraordinary scale that we've now built into the product. And Betsy is accommodating all of that And we're really, really looking well positioned in a way that we haven't been in many years for anything changing in the macro environment. Including what you've outlined homeowners insurance rates going up.

Really good stuff. Interesting. If the trend profitability keeps moving in the right direction, how do you maybe think that will drive the amount of risk you take? And how do you benchmark kind of like the amount of risk you're taking a certain period? And even how you might price for things on the front end?

That's a really good question. I think what gets lost in the dialogue about us versus many of the other FinTechs is we are operating a pure marketplace business. We do not hold loans on balance sheet that have not already been committed to be sold to others. We have 45 institutional investors on our platform. That are buying our loans, our HELOCs. Every day. And so fundamentally, we make a loan unless we've got buyer lined up. When you're locking that loan with us, we already know where it's going, and that's how Tinman is fulfilling the set of underwriting criteria for that particular investor to deliver that loan to that particular investor. So I think the path to profitability we're talking about is not one built on taking any more marginal units of risk. The to profitability is really built around like look we lost like basically nine million dollars a month last quarter. Right? With what we're doing to shut down The UK businesses, that's like a million a month. You know, what we're doing to, you know, improve the profitability at the bank. We think that that gets us another million a month. I think with AI, driving down operations costs, I think we can, like, scale up and save another $3,500,000 a month We've got a whole bunch of compliance legal costs from the de SPAC, the very aggressive CFPB era all of that sort of stuff.

I think we can scale that down $1,000,000 a month.

We got a bunch of legacy contracts that we still have from '21, '22 right, which, you know, we just finally got out of the office space that we had in New York. That was like 45,000 square feet and downgraded that by 80%. And moved to a cheaper space. So I think that's another $2,000,000 a month. And then you should add some volume growth add some improvement in margin, add some profit from the neo channel, you're getting to breakeven. And so we see a path to breakeven again, built on efficiency, built on exiting a bunch of the legacy costs that we have from the 2021, twenty twenty two days and exiting the legacy businesses that we have. And improving margins that you see us continuously doing. And again without taking any more risk from a credit standpoint.

Yes. I mean, I'll add to what Kevin and Michelle said. I think 100% of the loans we did in the quarter were precommitted to investors at the time of origination. If it's not 100%, it's 99%, right? So we don't take really any risk. The only the way we think about risk is should we lean into marketing this month versus month depending on market conditions, right? But that is a very tactical in the moment decision. And then on the expenses, if you look just Q3, to Q4, we took out $11,000,000 of expenses, core expenses, expenses look roughly the same because we took a $16,000,000 charge on the disposition of The U. K. Assets that was noncash onetime. But when you strip that out, we got expenses down about $11,000,000 $12,000,000 in the quarter or $4,000,000 a month. So we are and in all major categories, think as Vishal said in the prepared remarks, we were down. Corporate expenses were down a bunch. Marketing was down a bit. So we definitely took a lot of expenses out. In Q4 and continuing to do so in Q1.

Really good stuff here, guys. We appreciate you. Thank you.

Thanks, Eric.

The next question comes from Jake Kliemann with Oppenheimer. Your line is open.

Hi. Thank you very much for taking the questions. Is Jay Koinman on for Rayna Kumar. Can you walk through the saving opportunities from Tinman's of AI as well as how that contributes? Thank you very much.

Totally. So think the savings are, when we think about your traditional loan officer and loan officer assistance. Right? The bulk of their time particularly in the D2C channel is spent servicing customers that are coming in via the online channel chasing after those customers in the purchase market chasing after the realtor who those customers are using. And so there's a ton of effort on outbound calls. And then there's a ton of effort chasing inbound calls that you missed because you were on the phone with someone else. Now again, you can staff up. You can have a 10,000 person call center, to capture all these calls, and you make all these outbound calls like other mortgage companies do doing 400 outbound dials a day. It's It's really inefficient and really grinds down the labor force. We have Betsy doing all inbound calls. In the nights and evenings. So we don't list we don't miss a single call. We used to, like, miss 40% of calls that would come in because people would not be available to meet their loan officer because they're calling at nine p. M. In the evening after they put their kids to bed and they're looking at what they're doing for the home buying that coming weekend or they're calling us on the weekend when they're about to go into contract on their home and they want to make sure that the rate quotes is still good and they want to refine the purchase amount.

Now we had these tools online, but Betsy really dramatically reduces the cost, but also most importantly improve the customer experience because it's always on. And we have and so I think that's been a game changer. And I think there's ability to take up $2,000 per funded loan in sales costs once Betsy gets fully implemented in the sales funnel. Right? So, you know, we're doing almost like a thousand loans a month. Right? And we're trying to scale that up. You know, with Neo, it's more than that. So we're we're we're getting there. Right? Like that's some serious savings per month that we're able to generate as we implement this not just for ourselves but for our B2B partners. On the automation side, we are pressing ahead. If you look in the earnings supplement, you will see the percentage of locked loans that are AI underwritten and that's increased about 40%. The loans that are AI underwritten, we're saving $1,400 per loan, right, potentially. And, you know, we're we're we're and again, so you add those two things up. We're talking about production cost that's already more than 35% cheaper than the rest of the industry. And now you're talking about for the full AI driven loans, you're talking about $3,500 per loan in savings on top of that.

Now that's all going to go to margin because we already have some of the lowest gain on sale and therefore the lowest price to the consumer out there. And so all those AI and enhancements will effectively drop to the bottom line. I hope that provides some context.

Yes. Thank you very much.

The next question comes from Bose George of KBW. Your line is open.

Hey, good morning everyone. This is actually Alex Bond on for Bose. Appreciate you taking our questions. Just to start with us now almost at the of the first quarter, just wondering if you'd be able to give us an update on how gain on sale margins are trending quarter to date compared to 4Q in light of the decline in rates over the course of the quarter. And then also as you mentioned in the prepared remarks, the gain on sale margin on neo loans has been stronger to date than the 2024 company wide margin. And you mentioned that there's potential to maybe even improve this further as a efficiencies improve. Is this primarily from AI and other tech related? Or would this be from primarily from AI and other tech related improvements or are there other components that could be improved efficiency wise as well? Any additional color there would be great. Thanks.

Okay. So this is Kevin. I'll start and I'll unpack that There's a couple, I think, sub questions in there, and Vishal will probably want to jump in. So on gain on sale in Q1, it is trending higher We put in a release $90,000,000 and deal loans already in Q1. We really just they just onboarded in February. We crossed 100,000,000 this morning. So we are over a hundred million dollars loans, and they are running much higher, 150 basis points higher on fee on sale than in direct to consumer business. Now that that is something we knew going in, expected we would have been disappointed if they weren't running higher gain on sale. Just given their boots on the ground business, their expertise, etcetera. So our aggregate gain on sales should trend higher as Neo is a bigger part of our production, right? I mean, practically, we're replacing $1,000,000,000 a year of Ally volume with call it, dollars 2,000,000,000 in Neo, let's just say, this year. And that will be a much higher gain on sale than what we would have reported on our Ally. So and then on the D2C business, I'll start. I'm sure Vishal will want to jump in.

Yes, Betsy and the AI allow us to we've gradually increased our gain on sale in the direct to consumer business, right? We were sub-two percent. We're now north of 2%. We're not at the point 5% that Neo is at, but the business isn't built that way, right? It's an online business. As Vishal said, we have some of the lowest rates out there.

But through our improvements and better customer experience through the AI, we've been able to gradually increase the net on sale. And the rate drop we've had we're kind of roughly around 6.5 now on rate, right, is definitely helped a bit as well.

Yeah. So I'll tell you what's contributing to the margin increase. [indiscernible] Online, a consumer submitting effectively a lead. When they're online, they're shopping around. They're going to our site, they have a tab open with somebody else's site, they be on one of the comparison shopping engines. And typically consumers would submit a lead it would take us more than five minutes to get back to them. Right, to call them, to try to reach them by which point they may have gone somewhere else. The efficacy of our marketing was lower, but also they're shopping around. We've taken that five minutes and brought it down to eight hundred milliseconds. With Betsy. Across the board. That's an improvement of 400 x in speed. And so now we're catching the customer faster than anybody else. We're catching the customer before they have a chance to, you know, go somewhere else, shop around, we're able to tell them about our closing guarantee, we're able to tell them about the better price guarantee. We're able to answer their questions. We're able to convert them from a lead to a application, we're able to approve them able to do all these things that before just with a human staff call center, was kind of nearly impossible.

And so then you end up competing much more on rate. Than you do on speed and surface. And I think that that's again enabled us to continue to get better margin while still maintaining our value proposition for the consumer.

Great. That all makes sense. I appreciate you taking the question.

Your next question comes from Reggie Smith of JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Hey, good morning. Thanks for taking the question. Really encouraging the disclosures you gave around the potential savings from I guess, a lot of your cost initiatives. My question I'm not sure if you guys have broken it out or even thinking about the business this way, but is there a way to contextualize contribution market profit per loan or or loan economics That way, know you guys cited some savings potentials in the press release. But I'm curious, how you guys think about and how we should think about like loan economics at at the loan level. So like you know, revenue per loan, expenses, is there a way to attribute [indiscernible] the loan origination process? And I have a follow-up. Thank you.

Yeah. And so so it's Kevin. I'll make a few comments Obviously, in the GAAP financials, you don't see that. We run the business on a contribution margin basis, and the contribution margin in the mortgage business has been improving meaningfully the last couple of months. And we I think we can go we can go we'll we'll take away to break it out for next quarter in a way that you'll be able to kind of track it back to the GAAP financials? It's something we talk about all the time. But I will tell you through these savings and the improvement in gain on sale, the cost savings via the AI, the contribution margin continues to get better on our production. So and it continues to be into Q1. That's something we are maniacally focused on, right? Because while we're cutting corporate costs faster than we're cutting costs in the mortgage business. We also need to lower costs in the mortgage business in order to to really drive contribution profit that we can then use to cover what is you're always going have some fixed overhead.

Yep.

So we think about that all the time. Yep.

Reggie, 2024 was a lot of changes. We moved from a salary based loan officer and processor model to an incentive based low base, high incentive model. We started recruiting experienced loan officers. We had to teach those loan officers to man, the ones that didn't understand or couldn't be productive on Tinman, had to let them go. So we had some charges. So 2024 and then We did deal at the end the Yes.

And then we did Neo at the end of the year and so we had some onboarding expenses related to that. And then lastly, like we were hoping for the rate cut to actually in September to actually bring rates down and that didn't. So that made a bunch of our marketing spend negative because we're buying leads and the consumers thinking they're getting a 6.5% rate by the time they get to lock they're getting a 7.25%. Right. That consumer is not in the money anymore or that consumer is not able to isn't going to proceed going forward is going to wait. So we had a lot of challenges in 2024. We made a lot, a lot of progress. But what we decided by the end of twenty twenty four was like we are going to focus maniacally on any growth that's going to come with positive contribution margin we're going to continue to expand the positive contribution margin even if that means forecasting a slightly slower growth rate. Now I think we can achieve fast growth and improved contribution margin and that's really possible not in a human centric business model but an AI centric business model.

And I think that's really what we're leaning very, very hard into. So hopefully that can give you some context for the future. And of course, we'll take it under advice that, like, we we need to get out to make your job easier. That, to break out contribution margin, you know, next quarter.

You know, I I didn't know if I had missed that or or what. Like I said, I don't have a model for you guys. And like, that was just something I was looking for, so I wasn't sure. If I could sneak two more questions in really quickly. One, I I love the demo that you guys showed or or you know, presented during the the call. Was curious you know, how it's resonating with consumers. And and my inclination, and I could be totally opposite, it probably for younger people, it's probably a more natural way of of doing things. I was curious. You know, any feedback you've gotten or, insights you've gotten in terms of know, are younger folks using the the automated system better than older people? And, you know, how often people opt out and say representative or something like that. And then my last question, you talked about, you know, I guess, approving a loan in one day. I was curious how quickly you guys can fund the loan. That's something that I've I've come to appreciate in the last month. I'm trying to sell my condo in Brooklyn. And so, like, you know, people that have that are able to close quickly makes a difference.

I was curious if if if you had any any advantage there as well. Thank you.

Yeah. No. That's a great question. So we're seeing adoption of Betsy in general be quite high. About 18% of consumers ask to be transferred. To a human loan officer, as part of the process. Right? So they encounter it. They they realize that it's an AI, they wanna move onto a human. So, yeah, we're going to work to get that down. And we've got to work to get the voices more humanistic. We've we've got to do a lot of work you know, on continuing to add the functionality, So I would tell you it's early days. Like we launched the first version of vet Betsy and, you know, not a few only a few months ago. So you know, you can sort of see we're we're increasing functionality, increasing realism and it's going to improve. The take has been greatest between the ages of you know, 20 to 35. Then, actually, surprisingly, 55 and up. Right? Because, they're okay with something that goes a little slower. In terms of talking and it's talking clearly. And so we've seen some good stats around that. Again early days, we'll see how that all shapes up. But definitely young people love the fact you can talk to it anytime.

You can text with it, you have a loan officer you can go to anytime. We're just really leaning into that. And then the last question with respect to closing times. I think in New York we're able to close a loan on average. Let me just actually get the stats but much faster than the competition [indiscernible] give me a second, I'm just going to pull it up for you. On New York, where we're doing the industry average for closings is forty six days. And we're doing thirty two days. Now, of course, there's a lot of latency there with, like, people have to figure out how to move and all that sort of stuff. But you know we're about 40% better than the competition. In New York State specifically.

No. It's good. It's something I didn't appreciate. So went through the process myself. So glad to hear that's a that's a really important selling point. For, for buyers. And I'll tell you, like, personally, I I hate AI, but it's something I've gotta get used to. Terms of the automation. I'm one of those 18 percenters that's always [indiscernible] an automated system. But yeah. No. It's it's it'll be interesting to watch that evolve over time. Congratulations on the quarter, and good luck, guys.

Hey, Reggie. If you find a buyer in Brooklyn, then tell them to go to better.com. We'll preapprove them in a couple minutes.

Will do.

The next question comes from Michael Kay with Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

If I look at the Q3 adjusted net income and adjusted EBITDA, there was no improvement in year over year profitability volumes being up 76% year over year. Can you just walk through why the higher year over year volumes and cost initiatives over the last year isn't translating into better profitability Maybe just walk us through some of the dynamics then if I'm missing anything.

You're doing, you're doing year over year what you're doing? Yes.

It'll go up to $8,000,000 loss to adjusted net loss [indiscernible] Yeah. As as Michelle said, we, marketing is expense we took marketing expense up and that was the biggest difference. And we actually hire more people as well.

Into you know, as Vishal mentioned before, we hired more people into what we had expected to be a declining rate environment in the second half of the second half of twenty twenty four, which bluntly didn't really pan out. And we've pulled back a bit on that. And so that some of that noise you're seeing in there. Q4 of twenty twenty three was a low point on volume. It was also a low point on staffing within the mortgage business the mortgage factory. So all the other corporate costs and everything come down dramatically since Q4 twenty twenty three, but marketing expense was higher Q4 twenty twenty four. As was like sales and ops labor.

As we're getting as we're getting that going, that will continue to come down on a unit basis. Which I think was part of Reggie's question, which we're going to try to break out.

Yes. I mean we were overstaffed in Q4. We've after implementing Betsy, we have we've been able to reduce staffing by about two fifty people. In the mortgage factory.

Wow. Okay.

Shifting gears. And what's your level of optimism on spring home purchase season? Rates are around six and three quarters. More home inventory now available. Probably some pent up demand from buyers, though, you know, there's affordability headwinds. So just talk about how you're thinking about, [indiscernible] We're seeing the volume of preapprovals per marketing spend continue to improve dramatically. And I think that that's a good leading indicator. Right, of how many people are running out and just going shopping. We'll see how many of those people actually are able to find a house. But so far, it looks like the level of pre approval per dollar of marketing spend continues to improve pretty dramatically. So we're optimistic for what happens You know? And look, like, again the noise from Washington is about deregulation and about getting the tenure down. And so you put your odds on whether they can make that happen If you believe that that can happen, I think we might be in for a positive this spring and summer. Home buying season.

Okay. Thank you.

The next question comes from Jamie Friedman with Susquehanna. Your line is open.

Hi. Interesting presentation and demonstration. Really quite helpful. Most of my questions are answered. I was just wondering about the Mac macro. In terms of how you're characterizing the supply and demand dynamic in the end market, Where do you think we are in that continuum? And and and what are you anticipating if anything for the year ahead?

I think what we always say at at Better Now is that we have unfortunately, not been able to predict the macro environment for the past three years. We are optimists as hard as any technologist will tell you, you to be an optimist otherwise how are you going to believe. We do think that the supply demand imbalance in housing is going to get rectified in the next year or two. I think, you know, there's obviously an impact of tariffs. That means that the homes that are out there available for sale today are a relative bargain if the tariffs do actually continue and the the raw material cost of building a home goes up substantially. So I think old houses are going to sell more. We're seeing demand for the HELOC product really explode because people need to fix up the houses like the boomer houses need to be modernized to be able to sell to the millennial buyers. And so we're seeing ton of demand for home renovation on the HELOC product. Before people look to sell their house or if they stay in the same place. We grew our HELOC business 400% last year. Fastest growing HELOC lender in the market.

And we think we can grow it again pretty dramatically this year. And we've gone from basically nothing to being one of the leading HELOC lenders in the country. And so I think we're trying to build a balanced portfolio of loan types so that we can thrive in any macro environment out there.

Yes. I think that we're as Michelle said, it's it's been really hard to predict the macro if you listen to earnings calls this season, we're in the tail end. The word uncertainty comes up 20 times a call. That's just kind of the macro we live in right now. Every company does. And our industry in particular, that's important. We get it. But we definitely think we are way ahead of the trend and the inevitability around technology disrupting the legacy mortgage process in The U. S. Is probably maybe taking a little bit longer than we thought, but the trend continues, and we think we're definitely right on that trend, and that will play out over time. Regardless of where rates and the starts data was pretty good in February. But then people say consume confidence is down. So what does that mean for spring season? We get all that and try to factor that in and that does impact our market decisions on a day to day basis, but it doesn't really impact our tech road map at all. We know what we have to build.

Yeah. I I'll I'll add that, you know, we're sitting on over 2,000,000 preapprovals over the past couple of years. That we've issued where the people have not found a house. So, you know, we don't know when the dam breaks, but when the dam breaks, we're gonna be well positioned. The number of people that come to better.com and get preapproved per month is percentage points of market share.

In terms of the number of people that are shopping for a home. And, you know, the numbers that actually convert, like, you know, is basis points of market share. So, and a lot of that has been availability homes. And so we are really hoping that if the tide turns on rates or home affordability or availability we are in a position to meet that demand in the same way that we met the demand in Refi in 2020, but without the staffing costs that we incurred in 2020. So I think that's why you continue see us lean so hard into the AI.

Perfect. Thank you so much. I'll drop back in the queue.

The next question comes from Will Bruneman with West Coast Research. Sorry, North Coast Research. Your line is open.

Hey guys.

Good morning. So I wanted to ask how long do you think it will take to get Neo back to its former run rate volume as Tinman gets ramped up? And you mentioned Betsy driving cost efficiencies going forward. When do you see the majority of those further cost cost efficiencies fully realized? And then I have just one more quick question.

Sure.

I think we're looking for Neo to get back to their original volume in the next couple of months. Yeah.

Yeah. Q three? Yeah. Q three, it'd be back to where they were, and then q four, hopefully, be better than where they were.

Yes. And I'll tell you like we announced NEO. We we were at some industry conferences demoing Betsy. And the number of loan officers with large retail books that reach out to me on LinkedIn to say, hey. Can you join the number of people that reach out to Ryan and Chris and Danny who are the principals at Neo is pretty long. So we're just making sure that we can fully broaden out the product sets that are in Tinman, We're making sure that we can fully serve all of these loan officers. We're helping them go from driving like a Ford Taurus in the existing infrastructure and mortgage lending that they're on to driving a Ferrari and we just need to make sure they can do it and then they're off to the races. So NIO is going be back to its original loan volume in a couple of months and then we're going to grow that dramatically from there. And then the other part about Betsy we're going to keep you updated on the percentage of consumers and the percentage of consumers that are interacting with Betsy and therefore dramatically reducing costs from [indiscernible] And then we'll keep you updated on the percentage of loans that are being underwritten by Tin Man and you can compute just the cost savings from that.

And then the remaining loans still are subject to the old cost structure. But we'll keep you guys updated on that. But the cost savings are pretty significant and they're starting to show. Going to show this quarter. They're going show next quarter. They're going to show in the third quarter. As I said we think by the end of twenty twenty five, 70% of loans are going to be underwritten by Tinman AI. And with respect to Betsy, we've got one state that's all Betsy. You know? So you that, and then, you know, we gotta get to 50 states that are all Betsy.

Okay. Great.

And then my last question, what do you see as the expansion opportunities within the broader distribution retail channel like Neo.

I I think it's massive. I I think the number of people that we have reaching out to us to scale You know, look, like, on direct to consumer, we're fighting against some pretty sophisticated folks. You know? We're fighting against Rocket. We're fighting against Loan Depot. We're fighting against a number of people that have invested in technology. In the retail channel, we're fighting against effectively loan officer staffing platforms that have benefited or mortgage broker platforms that have benefited from the lack of any technological sophistication within that universe. And I think there's a pretty heavy tax that these platforms charge to the incumbent loan officer. And I think we can free them from that. I would say the closest example to that is what has happened in the RIA space right, versus hanging your, you know, hat at an old wirehouse. And getting a percentage, a small percentage of revenue, you could go to the RIA platforms that are tech savvy and private labeled and give you basically everything. And keep a larger percentage of your profits I think that's the disruption that's going to happen in retail I think we're going to lead that disruption.

That's awesome. Thank you guys for taking my questions.

The next question comes from Brendan McCarthy with Sidoti and Company. Your line is open.

Great. Thanks and good morning everyone.

Thanks for taking my questions here. I just wanted to start on the corporate cost reduction side.

I think you mentioned corporate cost reductions benefited '24 Just curious as to where you see the biggest opportunity for further reductions in 2025?

Sure. So there's a couple areas. We're going to continue on comp and benefits. Now on GAAP line item, right, everything is blended together, whether it's corporate or sales, UK, everything's gonna blend it together. So we can we'll do we'll break it out going forward. You're gonna concede continue to see benefits there. We're sitting in an office building right now that's 20% the size of the one we were sitting in, in the last earnings call. We're saving $10,000,000 in lease expense over the next couple of years just by moving office So you're going to start to we're dramatically renegotiating vendor contracts. Some we got done in the second half of twenty twenty four. You'll see a full year benefit in 2025. Some will get done over the course of 2025. So 'll see a full year benefit in 2026. And so it's really on all it's on all areas. If you look at just even G and A, right, year over year was down 70%. G and A quarter over quarter was down $2,000,000 Q3 to Q4. So we're in professional fee would be the other. Those are kind of the four big areas. There's obviously comp and ben's the biggest area.

G and A some of that is in technology expense, some of that's in G and A, vendors. And then obviously, your most of the lease work has already been done, but you're going to start to see the run rate benefits this year.

Great. That's helpful. That's helpful. Then what do you see for additional b two b partnerships the market just given the strength of the growing technology stack for for your company?

Yeah. So, I'll give you an exam you know, three examples. We, launched Betsy in October. You know, in the past couple of months, we've gotten call from the CEO of a top five servicer. [indiscernible] I want to build a recapture business. And I want it to be all AI Can you, private label Betsy for me? And therefore private label Tinman for me and help me do that?

Right? So we're term sheet discussions with them. We've got a top three financial services lead gen company, right, where again the CEO called and said, I've got a board meeting in four weeks and I need to show them, you know, AI needs to be implemented. Right? And so what can we do? So we said, sure. Happy to do it. You know, we're gonna be out there with their solution and it's going to be live and it's going to be proprietary to us. We've got a large community bank that wants to again do the same thing and have it built around non QM loans and bank statement loans and non conforming loans which again are very hard for your traditional mortgage software to do and we're in late stage discussions with them. So we're seeing the B2B side of it explode in a way that we haven't seen. Since sort of 2018, 2019 when people were coming to us to like help them build refi engines to address the refi demand. So but like we're not going just with the big guys which is kind of was our strategy after Ally, Amex, and others that were on the platform.

We've now taken the technology that we built for Ally and Amex and allowed us to get up and running with a B2B partner in three weeks. And that's a lot faster than what even is. Sales contract life cycle is for signing up with like the traditional players in the industry like Ellie Mae or Black Knight or others. So we're we're aggressively pursuing that. You're going to see us hopefully announce some big things in the coming months ahead.

Got it. Thank you. And last question for me. What do you expect the impact of losing the Ally business I guess, how do you kind of gauge that impact? And what are you doing to ultimately offset that loss? For the business as a whole?

Yeah. So if I just look at two well, three, you know, two two key metrics. I'll I'll just start with two, and then let me know if you wanna expand. On volume, you're just short of $1,000,000,000 That was in last year's numbers, so you're not going to see in this year's numbers. There will be some Ally volume in Q1. It really tails off after this quarter. Neo more than replaces that. And and, you know, we we guided up to, you know, low to mid double digits growth in volume this year. So we're gonna grow volume despite losing that $1,000,000,000 We're confident in that. And as a big part of it, obviously. And on EBITDA, it's really a neutral event. Net net, the way we had structured the fee relationship with Ally, worked extremely well in a very good low rate environment. But you have a fixed amount of people you need to put against a large B2B partnership like that. And as their volume came down along with the industries, they pulled back on marketing spend, etcetera. Totally understand why they did it. You were running basically an EBITDA neutral business. And so there's no negative impact to EBITDA.

Because we've obviously addressed the expenses associated with Ally as the revenues come off.

Is that helpful? Thanks, everybody.

Yes, absolutely. That's helpful. Congrats on the progress. Cool. Thank you.

This concludes the question and answer session. I'll turn the call to Vishal Garg, CEO, for closing remarks.

Thank you all for all your great questions and for continuing to support us as we build America's leading AI mortgage platform. And in doing so help consumers get a mortgage, get a better rate, have a better process, which lets them have a better house in a better school district with a better commute and a better backyard. And we're we started on this journey eight years ago The past three years have been really difficult for us. But we're playing offense and playing offense hard again. And we're looking forward to driving the business and being able to share more positive news with you in the quarters ahead. Thank you so much and thank you for believing in us.

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for joining. May now disconnect.