Raytech Holding Limited Ordinary Shares Price & Performance (RAY)

CFO. Welcome, Nina. Thank you.

Yuan and Ina will give you a short summary of the quarter, including the financials. And after that, we open up for questions. And you can ask them either orally or in writing. I also want to remind you that this session is recorded and you can find it through the same link as it used for this Teams meeting and on Rhodesedge's website.

And with that, I hand over to you, Johan. Go ahead. Okay. Thank you, Ivan.

I would like to start by, welcoming all of you to today's webcast. I'm happy to announce that our sales for the fourth quarter were highest ever SEK323 million. An increase of 8% compared to the same period in 2023. Operating profit was SEK74 million corresponding to an operating margin of 23%. The improved margin was mainly driven by increased license revenue which amounted to SEK 168,000,000. Order intake was SEK293 million. 4% down from last year. But we're keeping our upper momentum and opportunities for continued growth in Q1 and subsequent quarters look promising. RaySearch has a strong cash position of SEK $463,000,000 stable cash flow and no loans. Considering the company's financial position, and good future prospects, the Board of Directors propose to increase the dividend from SEK2 to SEK3 per share. At the end of last year, the team had turned to Proton thirty center in Italy became the first in the world to introduce discrete proton ARC treatments. The plants were optimized in RayStation and delivered with a machine from Proton ARC therapy is a method that has the potential to substantially improve treatments for patients. RaySearch has been a pioneer, and we played a crucial role in this development.

I'm happy and proud that the method now is in clinical use. In October, Genesis Care in The UK Genesys Care has 14 specialist outpatient cancer centers across The UK. And the order will enable them to fully replace their current Pinnacle treatment planning RayStation will also improve. Genesis Care has established adaptive radiotherapy capabilities and continue to support remote planning. Across the entire network. In early twenty twenty four, we acquired the product DragLog, which is a quality assurance system for chemotherapy. Drago complements our product offering and represents yet another step towards achieving our long term vision of providing software support for all types of cancer treatments. Including chemotherapy and surgery. In January, we received our first drug load order from the Children's Memorial Health Institute in Warsaw, in Poland. In the December, we exhibited at RSNA which is the world's largest radiology conference In my other product features, launches, we have presented new module for deliverablation in RaySearch. [indiscernible] The method has been developed in collaboration between RaySearch and and the Anderson Cancer Center. Has shown significantly improved outcomes during liver ablation in the clinical trial. [indiscernible] The reception at RSNA was very positive, and I'm looking forward to development in this new and exciting area.

Last May, we launched RayCare 2022A, with many feature updates and improved usability and efficiency. And in September, An important milestone was achieved when Iridium Network in Belgium treated their first patient using RayCare [indiscernible] With RACER now in clinical use with TrueBeam, we see a sharp increase in customer interest. Now let's take a closer look at the financials. So please, Nina, Go ahead. Thank you, Ilan.

Starting with the overview of the quarter four, I think it's worth repeating that Reisearch reached an all time high level in net sales, both in the quarter and for the full year. Net sales in quarter four increased by 8% to €323,000,000 compared to €300,000,000 last year. Adjusted for currency effects, the growth was 9%. The sales of licenses amounted to SEK160 million corresponding to a growth of 16%. And the support revenue amounted to SEK 131,000,000 which is an increase of 9% compared to last year. The quarter four order intake decreased by 4% from €318,000,000 to $3.00 5,000,000 The order intake for licenses were down 1% ending at SEK €159,000,000 and the order intake for support decreased 5% to 105,000,000 And it is important to bear in mind that the nature of the order intake, especially from licenses, that it fluctuates between the quarters and that net sales can to a far extent be generated from orders received in the same quarter. The operating expenses for the period amounted to SEK235 million compared to €223,000,000 in the same quarter last year. And that corresponds to an increase of 5%. As also mentioned in previous quarterly calls, there has been a reclassification in the 2024 consolidated profit and loss statement.

And the effects from this has been disclosed in a separate table in year end report on Page seven. Quarter four was another quarter of strong performance Operating profit ended at €74,000,000 and the operating margin was 23%, and that is eight percentage points higher than last year's 15%. Operating profit last year was NOK44 million. Dollars The cash flow from operations amounted to €103,000,000 in the quarter compared to last year's $116,000,000 And it has been affected by fluctuations in contract and contract liabilities. The cash flow for the period was NOK24 million dollars and we had higher leads payments in the cash flow statement in 2024 that was related to that we had lease payments that belonged to 2023 that was made in the beginning of January 2024. Moving on to the full year. Order intake grew 8% from €1,400,000,000 last year to SEK 1,870,000,000.00 in 2024. The order intake for licenses grew 13% amounting to SEK $523,000,000 and the order intake for support increased by 1% to SEK $396,000,000. The full year growth in net sales was 17%, from €1,220,000,000 in 2023 to SEK 1,190,000,000.00 billion. The sales of licenses increased with 30% to €576,000,000 and support sales was up 14% to $473,000,000 Research ends a strong year with an operating profit of SEK260 million and a double operating margin of 22%.

Last year's operating profit was €115,000,000 and the operating margin was 11%. Cash from operations in 2024 improved to SEK $485,000,000 compared to SEK $456,000,000 in 2023. And the lower cash conversion rate in 2024 As I previously mentioned, is mainly related to fluctuations in contract assets and contract liabilities. The cash position at the end of the period amount to SEK $463,000,000, and that is a significant increase from the position at the beginning of the year, which was SEK344 million. Dollars Moving on, looking at the development of EBIT and EBIT margin quarter by quarter for the last two years. It reflects a stable and really strong outcome during 2024. And that RaySearch is on a good move towards the target of at least 25% operating margin by '20 And the strong development is also visible on the next slide showing the rolling 12 development in net sales and operating result starting in the fourth in the first quarter in twenty twenty three with a rolling 12 net sales of $866,000,000 and the rolling 12 EBIT of 37,000,000. And ending in the last quarter of twenty twenty four with an almost 40% higher full year net sales and seven times higher full year EBIT.

Taking an even longer perspective on the development in net sales, it has been an almost steady growth development since 02/2008. The exemptions are 2020 and 2021 where sales was highly affected by COVID restrictions. The recurring revenue from support sales was 40% of the total revenue in 2024. [indiscernible] The end of the year backlog amounted to EUR $1,833,000,000.0003000000000 euros of which €552,000,000 is expected to generate net sales in the next coming twelve months. And that was all from me. Moving back to you, Johan. Thanks, Yuna. [indiscernible] Okay. So with all time, high sales of 1,990,000,000.00, 70% higher than last year and an operating margin of 22%. Think we can summarize 2024 as a positive year for RaySearch. In light of our performance during the year, the Board has decided to, as previously announced, to raise the target for the operating margin to at least 25% for 2026. The previous target was 20%. And also, I've decided to propose a dividend increase to SEK3 per share. With a solid year behind us, we are building on our strong momentum and see bright prospects for continued growth in 2025. Thank you.

Sorry, thank you, Johan and Lynne. So we now open up for questions. And you can either ask your question orally or by them in the chat. So if you want to ask question orally, please press the hand button at the top in the menu in the Teams window. And I will announce your name. And if you want to ask a question in writing, just use the chat function. And there are already three questions in the chat. So from someone that's anonymous, how much of the you want to ask him?

I see the question. Johan. So the first one is of the revenue during the quarter comes from the large Spanish order. That means the Ortega order. And that's there is no revenue in this quarter from that order. We will see we believe we'll see the first revenue in Q3 of twenty twenty five. And then during the coming three years, that revenue will be generated. The question two is On Page five of the report, it says that the license revenue for the three largest contracts is SEK69.8 million. Which is 43.5%, should be 12%. If that is correct. So, Nida, can you check that?

Yeah, I will. It might be a question that we have to I can answer really Question number three in the meantime. We don't disclose the percentage of license revenue from from Ray Cab, but it's rather small in this quarter.

Okay.

Should we move on? We can take that in the background. Yes, I think we'll have to.

So should we come back to that? Yes. Okay. Okay. Then there is an oral question from Oscar Bey.

Beiman.

Please go ahead, Oscar. Hi, guys. I hope you can hear me.

Yes, we can hear you.

Perfect.

So I've got quite a few questions, but they're not so much on the Q4 report itself. It's It's more about general level.

One at the time then.

Yes. Exactly. Of course. I prefer that as well. So wondering if you can elaborate on what made Varian open up to interoperability with ReCare? I mean, considering Eleta isn't And also, can you give some more background to Varia leaving the proton therapy field? Because I think you mentioned this before, but I failed to find much information on it. Okay.

The first question is Why did I open up for interoperability? I think Varian has a strategy to mean they have a big they call it three to three cost cost system program where they open up for vendors in the industry to connect to their equipment. And so that's their policy. Also, I think the demand from many customers having [indiscernible] have simply asked Varian to open up to RaySearch. It's been a balance of it's been a combination of [indiscernible] and the customer pressure, I would say.

Okay. Okay.

And the second question, I think I should that's an internal Siemens question, I would say. I can only speculate, but I can state the fact that Siemens had let's say, a big adventure in carbon ion therapy back in the days. Where they built three carbon ion facilities two in Germany, one in China. And that was I think not a very economically beneficial project for Siemens. So they sort of I don't I think they have been burnt by particles, burnt by carbon ion. Iron in the carbon iron field. So and now when they acquired Varian for the mainly for the Lilac business, They also got sort of Protons in the package. And so my speculation would be that Siemens wanted to get out of from the Particle segment again. Again, speculation here.

Okay. Thank you. Just a follow-up question on that because I mean, one I think one could argue that very leaving the proto field would open up an opportunity for you. But I suspect that you're already sort of winning most of the the orders with IBA in this field? Is that a correct assumption?

Yes, that's correct. Although It really meant that I mean, we were very strong in the proton or in the particle segment. Even before Siemens left. But that made us even more dominant when it keeps sort of but haven't been drawn with Eclipse from proton planning. But I guess the customer perception is that if Siemens as a company leave, The proton business, then they will not invest heavily in the Eclipse. That's what I guess. So but in effect, we win pretty much every 100% of the proton particle orders. Currently and we have 127 particle centers, which is [indiscernible] We're not only through IBA. We work with all of the Proto vendors, and there are many. It's he touched Sumitomo Heavy Industries, maybe on the list of Toshiba. It's a long list actually of vendors in this segment, and we work with all of those hardware vendors.

Yes, you have a lot of industrial partners and I'm wondering if if there's a stickiness to those collaborations, I mean, have you lost any partners in the last couple of years or [indiscernible] Yes.

We have very good partnerships with very many different companies. Yes. Okay. It's part of our strategy and we really enjoy that. Okay.

Thank you. And then I appreciate that you are very good on reporting the number of centers that RISD has the transmission is installed at. Can you give some more information on the number of licenses that are out there so we can get so we can get sort of an understanding of how many licenses there is at I can give you approximate numbers. So let's say that we are very close to 1,100 centers now. I think if I'm not mistaken, it's ten ninety six. And we have sold about 4,200 race stations in total to those centers, That's an interesting number because The average number of Linmax in centers worldwide is 1.5. But since our installed base is a bit skewed towards larger centers. The average number of Linux our installed base, 1,100, is three Linux. Per percent there. And then you need At least between two and three, Between two and three, treatment planning systems per Linac. And that means Our installed base, if they were fully equipped in base station, would have somewhere between think 515,000 race stations if you follow high riskening. Yes, absolutely. And so that means that there is still a big potential selling more RaySearch into our installed base.

So it's only like fifth a bit more than 50% penetrated currently. And that's what also what we see. In every given time period right now, license revenues that we get are 50% come from installed base. So they buy more RaySearch and they buy more modules within each Ray Station. And on the module side, the penetration is even less. It's way less than there are about 20 viable options in for RayStation. And there, the potential is much larger than the additional 50% or so. Okay.

Thank you. Then maybe it's a stupid question. Why is it so that you have to use three to four TPS per line AC? [indiscernible] Yes, that's [indiscernible] Yes, that's the expensive capital equipment, and it should run constantly. So the treatment planning should never be the bottleneck. So you have always a redundancy in treatment planning compared to the Linacs. So you prepare because you don't see there is no direct link between the treatment planning system and the machine. The treatment planning is done few days before the first treatment starts. The first fraction starts. So So this is a preparatory it's just about bandwidth. And it's needed treatment planning systems is just about what the patient throughput is. But this is like the established numbers that In the field.

And this is not something that is expected to to go down thanks to some sort of optimization or [indiscernible] in the other direction with more adaptive treatments. Because then you do a lot more planning, I mean, in a way, with the adaptive treatment, you do 30 times more planning because you plan essentially every day.

Yes.

Also, a patient receives 30 fractions typically then with adaptive planning, you make a new trip and plan every day, so that means [indiscernible] [indiscernible] There's nothing that speaks to a lower number of deep assets.

Okay.

Thank you. I see that there are sorry, sorry, yes. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people are also asking questions, but I'll try to finish with just three more, if I may. I know that Elekta and Varian are competing more on pricing. Compared to you, I suspect when I looked through my notes after having gone through your conference calls, I see that you may have mentioned an average initial license fee of around DKK4 million. This is a good ballpark number or is it a big spread depending on It's a huge spread. And that was not a lie. That's for what I have said, the £4,000,000 comes from the first sale. When we get the new clinic. On average, they spend SEK 4,000,000 on that first configuration. There is more I don't remember it, but there are more RaySearch licenses included in that. Typically, it's four Raystation licenses, I would say.

Correct. And then are you comfortable in providing some sort of average license fee for RayStation and perhaps even RaySearch?

Yes, we haven't provided that and it's very complex because it depends on so many factors. And then, on adaptive therapy, Yes.

If I understand this correctly, I mean, RayStation has the support for it, but there are other systems at the customer centers that are limitation to this. Is that something that you will you will overcome by introducing RaySearch at those centers.

Yes, I think RayCare is almost a prerequisite for good adaptive. You can do it without you can do it purely with RaySearch, but it's more efficient if you have RaySearch. But you have to separate between online and on offline adaptive. Because offline adaptive meaning that you do the adaptation Between fractions, So you treat and then you measure and the next day you come up with a new plan that's offline adaptive. And that's that you can do without Raycare support and without any support of the the machine vendor. But online adaptive, which means that we we create a new plan yeah, less than two minutes when the patient is still on the treatment couch. So you take an image of the patient, two minutes later, you have a new plan and you can treat. That requires collaboration with the hardware vendor.

Okay.

Not all.

And you have Rick here at a few clinics now. Are you seeing adaptive therapy being implemented at those locations?

Yes. We see that being implemented. [indiscernible] Obviously, All right. Okay. Just a final question and then I will leave you alone. I understand that there is a consolidation in the U. S. Of RT centers. And you have I mean, you are mostly at the larger clinics in The U. S. But the smaller clinics make up like 80% of the total number. Is the consolidation a positive for you guys in that market?

Yes, it can be positive because you have less You can reach more clinics by just negotiating with one business partner. And so we have several clinics that are several of our customers are are made up of a chain of clinics.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you. [indiscernible] Any oral questions? Any more oral questions?

Okay. In the meantime, we had a question that we parked. Yes. Do you have maybe you remember? Yes, it was a question report, we write that of the total license revenue, SEK69.8 million comes from the three largest customers and that is 12% of the license revenue. And the the amount that is correct is the 69,000,000. And I'm not sure why we have written 12%, but that is wrong.

Okay.

Very careful reading by this.

Yes. So do you want to continue reading, Johan?

Yes. If I do I see the top, the next question or [indiscernible] Okay. There's one that you can't see, so I'm waiting for you. What is your forecast for order intake during 2025 and increased turnover.

Yes, we don't make those kinds of forecasts. What we are saying in the report and during this conference call is that we have a positive outlook on the both our order intake and the [indiscernible] revenue growth for 2025.

Thank you, Johan. That's another question from Carlos Morello. The marginal margin since Q1 twenty twenty three is 68%. What is the delta of plus three twenty six sales divided by three twenty six profit. I don't understand why see this question. Surely, unless OpEx takes a huge step up you are going to power at least power past 25% margins. Is this because to make Raycare a proper sales success, you are going to have to put a lot more money behind it?

I didn't follow that. It was a long time ago. But I can still answer it, I think. The answer is no. We will not have to put a lot more money behind Raikou to make it a success.

That's a short answer to that long question. Yes. But I think that answers the question because that was actually the last question. So I think you can read the next question yourself, Yuan.

You see it on the screen.

Okay. On the full year 2024 year on year decrease, in lease liabilities, Ian, can I hand that over to you? No, I was so sorry. Ian, can I hand that over to you? Or Yes, I guess the question is if we have excess office space, right?

The answer is yes, Yes, exactly. So we have two floors, right, in this building.

Please add color to geographic sales trends. While 26.5% downturn in Europe and Africa in Q4. 2024 year over year. So that is we see these fluctuations between the different regions from quarter to quarter. So that's quite natural. There can be a few larger orders that [indiscernible] turn or an upturn. But the nice thing is that they usually balance each other out. So when Europe is a bit weaker than likely APAC and and North America is stronger. And vice versa. So they tend to even out over over time. Perhaps more detail on whether order intake is available indicated [indiscernible] Considering there is a weak correlation between sales and this variable, Yes, but the main reason it is a pretty poor predictor for sales growth. The reason for that is as Nida indicated previously, that in a quarter, especially for licenses, so that's the main source of revenue for us. Order intake and revenue happens in the same quarter. So order intake for Grey Station, for example, is almost immediately converted into revenue. So you can have so it's very hard to look at the previous quarter's order intake to predict the revenue for the next quarter because the things happen at the same time.

So we can still an interesting variable, but it's just that it has It's not perfect for this type of prediction. I move on to the next question then. From what I can read in the report, there is limited revenue for RayCare. How long does it take from the first quote until you can invoice ReK? That's a good question. It takes a rather long time from the first quarter to I mean, that's can be six months, it can be twelve months, it can be eighteen months. Depending this span is quite it has a large span. [indiscernible] the Oteaga order, which is extreme in that sense, we got the order in 2022. We haven't recognized any revenue yet. We will start to recognize revenue in 2025 and this year. So extreme in the sense that those facilities are nine proton facilities weren't even built when we got the order. That's usually not the case. So So it can be quicker, but not much quicker Six months, I would say. Can you please give us some more color on the contract assets and contract liabilities impacting cash How do you see this developing going forward?

Yes, I can. Can try to answer that. It is a tricky questions because as I said, it fluctuates between the quarters up and down. We have a negative operating capital, and we see that, that will continue. But we will have cash flow effect between the quarters coming from the contract liabilities and the contract asset. And that depends a little bit how we negotiate each order and the installments related to that order. Because sometimes, and if we can, we negotiate that the installments or the payments will go together with the revenue recognition But sometimes we get paid upfront and sometimes we have longer payment schedules.

And especially for Re Care, I think the more Re Care we sell, sell, the The more we are paid earlier than we doesn't match the revenue. We get the revenue much later than we get the actual payments from the customer. What percentage of revenue comes from customers leaving Pinaqa? I don't have that exact number No, but I think it's quite a lot, maybe Okay. I can't say percentage of revenue. Everything combined with support. But in percentage of license revenue, probably 60%, 70% currently. And that it varies quite a lot from market to market. There are The background to this question is that there are Pinakin is declared end of life. So after December twenty twenty six, Pinnacle is actually end of life. So So all the remaining, maybe 400, 500 Pinnacle customers around the world we'll have to convert to something else before 01/01/2027. So that's why we see a strong revenue stream from such customers currently.

Thank you, Johan and Nena. There were a lot of questions today. Very good. Good questions. Are there any more questions? [indiscernible] Maybe Oscar, you want to ask another question? Oscar Bayman, please go ahead.

Yes, thank you. I'm back. So on Pinnacle, you say that there is an installed base of roughly 4,500 systems. Okay. 500, then they have to be converted. Still to something else. To Ray Station, Eclipse Or Monaco basically. Okay.

And How should one think about the risk of manufacturers trying to look in the new machines to own be compatible with their own treatment planning systems. Is this a realistic risk [indiscernible] It's a very small risk because the customers won't accept it. To start with. And this has been tried a few times with always with customers becoming upset and then it doesn't work that way. The other thing is that there are coming more and more alternative machines. In the field from various vendors like Hitachi Leo Cancer Care, Bea Big, Panacea, and some others that will compete in this field. So and they all all of these new manufacturers are compatible with RayStation and RaySearch.

So there are many reasons why that don't see that as a risk.

Okay. Thank you. And just a final question before I promise that I'm finished. It's okay. Okay, good. Because I understand that quicker and more effective treatment, obviously, that will save money for the customers. But do you have any type of number that you have communicated on how much a center could be saving, thanks to RayStation?

We don't have that yet. We have for various like components of the workflow and aspects of the operation, we can see can calculate and show time gains at various customer sites. But we haven't compiled yet, but that's what we want to do at some point to show how Just model the clinic and see how much money the clinic can save by going 85% you're saying. And then I mean, I estimate your 12% overall on Photons. Would you say that I mean, if you look at proton therapy, that it's a lot more expensive than photon. And when price is not really an issue and registration becomes a smaller portion of total costs related I guess that sort of reflects the actual demand that you could see also for the cheaper photon fields. You follow what I say. I mean, The demand received a proton could also be the demand received in photon. [indiscernible] Yeah. That's, what I think. And I think another such indicator is if you look at the most the highest ranking centers in the world, we have also a very dominant position So for the top 15 clinics in the world, 10 are customers. [indiscernible] like a 67% market share in that top segment.

And so that combined with the proton dominance should in the long run, lead to a more reasonable market share in general for RaySearch. We shouldn't have 12%. It should be something much higher. And in the submarkets, you are a lot higher. [indiscernible] That's correct. Okay. Exactly. All right. I'm happy with those answers. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Oscar. We have another oral question [indiscernible] Sorry? Pekka Ranta Yabi, please go ahead.

Okay. Thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes, we can hear you. Okay, great. First of all, congratulations for great performance in 2024. It's very impressive figures. It's nice to see that you are doing so well. So you and your team have really been working and doing a great work. So thank you for that.

Thank you.

But the simple question, we were already talking about the role of order backlog here, and it's not so valuable for forecasting sales in 2025. And so And also you had this principle of not really giving sales forecast or so exactly for the ongoing year here. But still, it's very interesting of course, to know how you see on this. So what can you see or say about your idea of investments in sales and marketing for example. Are you investing much more in sales and marketing this year? Than previously or are you continuing to quite the same pace sort of in the same way like previously. So just to get some idea about how you see on what you are doing to improve the order intake here during the ongoing year?

Okay. So we are investing nothing drastic will happen 2025. We are investing, we're adding some people in many different types of positions. Including sales and marketing in service also in R and D, some The OpEx growth from 24% to 25% would be similar to the one from 2023 to 2024. It will be not no drastic changes.

So you have that and then you have our goal to 25% EBIT margin and 2026. Yes, that's the one we've looked down. Have at least 25% EBIT margin and then then we can sort of adjust the the OpEx according to revenues to achieve that.

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Erbost Fugger.

Thank you.

Thank you.

A couple of new questions in the chat.

Right. So think it will be nice if When you ask a question, if you could present yourself. I think that would be [indiscernible] I can see that.

Okay. So that maybe I should use this one then. Hi, sorry, Adam.

Mind asking a question just directly.

Okay. [indiscernible] No. I had a later question. I wasn't sure what the order was like.

Please go ahead. And then I can So my first question was, customers are not going to accept the lock in in for manufacturers' TPS systems, as you said, then why have they accepted it for the oncology information systems?

Yes, I think that's for historical reasons. There was no alternative back in the days. There was these systems, they weren't called on call information from the beginning. They were called record and verify systems, and they came with a machine. From basically the Lektavarian.

So I think that's just a natural it was not like you could choose anything else.

Okay, I see. So, yeah, that's a historical explanation, I think.

And just the second question would be, if you could add a bit more color to switching costs for your treatment planning system?

Whether that's something that exists or whether through making your software so user friendly, it's rather easy for customers to switch?

Yes, we try to make it as easy as possible. But it's always it is There is some Well, [indiscernible] training, beam commissioning and other things. So Even though I would like to say it's like perfectly smooth, it is it requires work and money from the customer to to switch chip and panel system. [indiscernible] The training cycle is That's it adds to the stickiness of the product. And that's also we have almost zero churn a very limited churn in our installed base. So of course, it's mainly because it's a good system, but also because it's It's a bit burdensome to change system. Okay, understood. Thanks, Sandeck.

Congratulations for the financial year.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

There's a hand RaySearch.

Yes, that's Oscar Bermond.

You have another question.

I don't I think sorry. Okay.

Your hand was still raised.

Okay. Are there any more questions for anybody? [indiscernible] All right. Well, thank you very much.

Thanks a lot for your participation. Patience today. It was a lively discussion. And we conclude the session now and look forward to continue talking to you.

And if not before, it will be when the interim report for the first quarter of twenty twenty five will be presented, and that's on the May 9. So thanks a lot for today, and goodbye.

Thank you. Thanks. All right. Thanks very much.