UWM Holdings Corporation Price & Performance (UWMC)

Good morning. This is Blake Colo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Thank you for joining us and welcome to the fourth quarter and full year twenty twenty four UWM Holdings Corporation's earnings call.

Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially forward looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning. Our commentary today will also include non GAAP financial measures. Between the GAAP and non GAAP metrics, for the reported results, please refer to the earnings release issued earlier today. As well as our filings with the SEC. I will now turn the call over to Matt Ishpia, Chairman and CEO of UWM's Holdings Corporation, and United Wholesale Mortgage. Thanks, Blake, and thank you everyone for joining us today. 2024 was another fantastic year. I think you saw the headlines of one of the toughest mortgage years in a while. Obviously, the last three years have been tough. We grew 29% year over year about $139,000,000,000 Our gain on sale was up twenty percent one hundred and ten basis points in the broker channel, which is the biggest indicator, all these we've been talking about, grew quite a bit as well. I think the third quarter metric was maybe 27.4%, which is far higher than we've seen in in fifteen years.

All of the things we've been talking about continued to happen. We continue to dominate the purchase market, leverage our competitive advantages and talent to technology and world class service like I said help the broker channel grow its highest share of industry in years. So exciting to see. We retained our title as the largest mortgage company in The U. S. Now I think that's in 2024, the third consecutive year with the number one mortgage company in America. The fourth consecutive year, the largest purchase lender in America. And now I think it's the tenth consecutive year as the number one wholesale lender So we're very proud of what we're doing here at UWM UWM. 2024 was an amazing year and we're super excited about 2025.

As I've spoken in the past few quarters, we continue to invest in cutting edge technology, including AI, investing in our people, and we're the best positioned to capitalize on any change in the current market dynamic.

There are about $2,500,000,000,000 and growing in mortgage rates over 6% And so it won't take much for a shift on rates for those loans to be in the money. No matter what happens in the market, we are focused on what we can control. And making sure we are more prepared than our competition. You've all heard me say this before, I'll say it again. The unique thing about UWM is that our business is strong enough that we can simultaneously [indiscernible] whether it be interest rates dropping, consumer trend changing, new technology or even regulatory In 2024, was the lowest home sales year since 1995 and UWM had our best purchase year of all time. $96,000,000,000 of production. We actually think that might be the highest of all time for any direct lender in history. But either way, we had an amazing 2024 I said, dollars 139,400,000,000.0 in overall production, 29% increase, We also tripled our refinance business in 2024 compared to 2023 despite the interest [indiscernible] Which we'll talk about a little bit later. We delivered about $330,000,000 of net income, dollars 329,400,000.0 to be exact, and our gain margin is 110 basis points which is up from 92 basis points last year.

Turning to the fourth quarter, we had an amazing quarter across the board, dollars 38,700,000,000.0 in production well within our guidance. It's also worth pointing out in that quarter, we did over $17,000,000,000 in the month of October. There's like five week minor rate drop, what was it in August and September. And with that little thing we almost doubled our business and if you kind of do a quick run rate, you're thinking $51.52, dollars 53,000,000,000 with a small rate drop. What can happen if actually a bigger rate drop happens we're going to all find out, but we are prepared here double our business plus which is exciting. Gain margin was 105 basis points well within the guidance for the quarter. And obviously, did $40,600,000 of net income. So once again, great year, great quarter, firing on all cylinders at EWM. We're ready for whatever the market gives us and whatever market does, we're ready to dominate here. So I'm going to turn over our CFO, Andrew Hubacher, he'll give you some more information. Thank you, Matt UWM. Matt, I recovered many aspects of our Q4 and full year financial performance, I will just focus on a few UWM a few additional highlights.

We remained profitable operationally in 2024 with $460,000,000 in adjusted EBITDA. For Q4, our adjusted EBITDA was $118,200,000 These operational results were largely consistent with the prior year even as we invested significant in people, processes and technology to prepare the company for for continued growth. We've invested in growing our operations, underwriting and technology teams to support increased production volume and we believe our origination volume exceeded $226,000,000,000 Said differently, we believe that we can currently handle more than $100,000,000,000 of additional origination volume without increasing our fixed expenses. And despite our significant short and long term investments, we earned $29,000,000 on a GAAP basis, $460,000,000 on an operational basis in 2024. We also maintained our liquidity and capital and leverage ratios within targeted ranges in the current environment. As of the end of the year, we had approximately $2,100,000,000 of total equity, over $500,000,000 of cash approximately $2,500,000,000 of total accessible liquidity in an MSR portfolio with a fair value of approximately $4,000,000,000 We talked about this throughout the year but in so many ways 2024 was a year of investing. Our operational capabilities, to prepare the company and the wholesale channel We've also focused on being prepared for these opportunities from a capital and liquidity perspective.

And we believe that we remain well positioned operationally and financially any market will now turn things back over to our Chairman, President and CEO, Matt Ishbia for closing remarks.

Thanks Andrew. I'll close those two points before the Q and A. '24 was a banner year. From a production perspective, as you can see, we did lower grade income as well, really cash our third year over where we dominated in a down mortgage market. Where you can't see the numbers in 2024 is a huge year of technology artificial intelligence front. We invested in AI in three major categories: knowledge, efficiency and growth. And we are winning on all fronts. And you'll see some of those things start to result in 2025, 2026, in our financials and our production. The broker channel continues to show incredible momentum. In third quarter twenty twenty four, and obviously the four core numbers aren't out yet, for the broker channel's share of all direct fund was 27.4%.

Up seven percentage points from twenty two third quarter, so two years grew 7% and almost double from where it was in third quarter twenty twenty. So in four years, it's almost doubled. It's amazing to see, can we do it again? Right? Do we have a guess, can we double it in the next four years again? I don't know. I know we're working hard towards it.

The broker channel is gaining momentum just like we said it would since we went public years ago.

Additionally, by our calculations over 16,000 loan officers join the broker channel with over half of them actually leaving from the retail channel to join the broker. This momentum is continuing like we talked about in 2023 and 2024 We're excited to see how it continues to grow going forward. With all these great things that technology brokerage, all these come back to our people at UWM. The care factor and the culture we've created at UWM is what differentiates us. Also 25,000 clients we welcome on our campus for training each year spread the culture of the broker channel. Our team loves coming to work every day. And our training program both internally and for our clients remains world class so our people can continue grow and flourish here at UWM UWM. In 2025, our priorities remain the same.

Build the best technology and provide the best service to the broker channel, take incredible care of our team members and clients by treating them like family, win every single day by dominating on purchase and staying prepared for a shift in rates, and continue to reward our shareholders.

I'm very proud of what we did in 2024 and I'm excited about 2025. Now, looking to the guidance in Q1, we expect to be $28,000,000,000 to $35,000,000,000 as you guys always know, the first quarter is always the lowest production quarter. And so we expect that to carry on this year as well.

Last year we did $27,600,000,000 So actually below what our low end of the guidance is this year. We also expect GAIN on margin to be between 9,115 basis points for the first quarter. So we're expecting a great first quarter, but even more importantly an amazing 2025 here at UWM. So now I'm going to turn over to questions. Thanks for your time today.

We will now begin the Q and A session. Our first question comes from the line of Terry Ma with Barclays.

Hey, thank you. Good morning.

Maybe just first starting with operating expenses. It was quite a bit higher than what we were expecting this quarter. I'm just curious if there is anything one time in there and UWM like what we should expect for a runway going forward?

Yes. No, it's a one time investment. But we're going to do it every month. So what we're doing is we're investing in our business to dominate. So the expenses are not even a thought of my mind. We're prepared, as Andrew said, dollars 100,000,000,000 more, but maybe to more than do that. Like we can literally double our business. And so preparation is key. As you guys saw with the little refi boom in October, we've almost doubled our business. Nobody else can do that. And so we're prepared for that, not only from the refi perspective, but also the purchase as the momentum is really, really strong right now. And we're prepared to dominate. And so our business model is not nickel dime every expense. Our business model is win. And so these are investments, not expenses. And in the big scheme of things, these little investments that we're talking about, are going to pay such UWM dividends just like we've always done. And so so the expenses, we probably don't need to hire many more.

People. So we're kind of be more flat line is how we think about it from a perspective of replacing attrition. So it's not like our expense will go up more, but these were investments 2024 was an investing year and a technology building year. And 2025 is a dominant year.

That's what we're going for. Got it. Okay.

And maybe just on kind of refi, you mentioned you kind tripled it in 2024. Maybe just talk about the initiatives you're doing around that, kind of what the outlook is for share and refi kind of going forward? Thank you. Yes. Well, share and refi will be interesting outlook is we are prepared back to my earlier statement on the same topic to double our business. And UWM saw we tripled the REIT by share, but I'll still doing more purchase business, which is phenomenal. I think it was the largest purchase year in history. By any lender. And obviously, it was a slow year from a purchase sales and all those stuff in the market. So we think 2025 will be a better year. There's more houses for sale. And then on the refi side, you're talking about like like there's trillions of dollars that just need about a quarter lower rate than we are right now, like we're not far off. The ten year is at 04:30, I think ish. I always tell you $3.75 is where the money is at. But if we get down closer to four, you're going to start seeing some of this and we are prepared.

And so we're excited about the opportunity on refi where it continue to dominate on purchase and we're excited for what's going to happen in 2025. We really think it's going to be a heck of year.

Our next question comes from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG.

Hey, thanks. Good morning to hear from you guys. Okay. So you guys have been really active with various incentives offering other ways for successful brokers to pass along savings to borrowers. How do you maybe measure the success for these initiatives? Like how do you like benchmark that success at different levels for interest rates maybe or mortgage rates? Yes.

Thanks, Eric.

Appreciate the question. Yes, there's a lot of lot of ways I can go through and it's probably more complicated and more detailed than I'm going to do on this call. But the key thing here is this, [indiscernible] margin for the first time from 85 to 110 to 90 to 115. So first time for years we are at 75 to 100 in the troughs. I believe the opportunity is coming. Now I don't doesn't mean we're going to be on the high end of these things. I think we're going to be consistent like delivering what I always deliver which I tell you we're going to do, we do it. But what I'll tell you is, you see these incentives and these marketing things and these are all great, also you got to understand the all in margin that we deliver is a focus of ours. And so the way I look at these, there's measurements on retention of those brokers and the LOs and what percent of their business they use UWM for, how do we get them in the door, how do we get them bought into more of our products and services from training. We have success tracks like this week alone in February in Michigan, we have over nine clients that flew to Pontiac, Michigan.

I know Eric, you've been here before. It's beautiful, but it's freezing out here. But people still flew out here because they're getting trained. And so like those are some of the ways you measure those investments. It's like I'm investing and giving them a price incentive that might do this that drives them to understand what we do, which helps them grow their business, which then helps them get more business, which then drives CWM. Once again, that's a very layman's way of saying it. And I have a team of analytic people that have detailed beyond detail about how it actually works and how we make it happen. And so so a small little thing, if you looked at I kind of mentioned it in the pre talk where like in October, like we we doubled like overnight and it's like a $52,000,000,000 to $54,000,000,000 run rate with really not even a refi. So it's like how do I train our brokers and coach them ready to do revise streamlines or IRRs or how do I teach them how to do cash outs and how do we do these things to getting them prepared all about preparation so that they can dominate and then we can dominate.

Great stuff. Appreciate that. Always appreciate your thoughtful answers. I mean UWM, looking here at the volume and margin guidance you gave for the first quarter, I mean, much of that drop quarter over quarter would you just attribute to just seasonality versus there being an actual falloff in demand at these at these rates? And is there like a baseline minimum volume of originations you might expect right now even if rates were to go higher than they are today?

Yes. Guno, great question, Eric. Appreciate it, your thoughts on it. And so we guided to 28 to 35 last year. I think we did 27.6% in the first quarter. I don't remember what I guided to last year. But I would say it's materially less than what we're at right now. These numbers, I expect us to do more each quarter, like we're trying to build upon building. So way we look at it is right now, these numbers are actually really good. If you see what I would also guide you and everyone things you're going to do, being able to guide to 28 to 35. Once again, I'm not going I'm not going to exceed those numbers. Like I'm trying to give you real numbers where I think I'll be in this range. On margin and and at the same time UWM, but we feel really good about that. And to do $30,000,000,000 let's just call that the number $29,000,000,000 $30,000,000,000 in the first quarter, I don't know the last time that's been done besides in 2020 and 2021.

And so if you think of the last ten years of any mortgage company, once you find anyone that's done $30,000,000,000 in the first quarter besides 2020 and 2021, don't think it's happened, maybe $22,000,000,000 because there was some holdover from the rates. But what I'm saying is, it's a great it's going to be an amazing quarter. And knowing that the second and third quarters always pick up, we kind of look at this as the low quarter. First quarter is always the worst. Fourth quarter is the second worst, second and third are always awesome.

Yes. Great stuff. Thank you guys so much.

Appreciate you.

Our next question comes from the line of Derrick Summers with Jefferies. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning, everyone. To follow-up on the guidance question, related to volume in the first half, of the year, we saw purchase mix at around 80% in the second half. Call it around 60%.

Kind of what are your expert expectations for that mix heading into '25. And you're saying in the purchase mixture of the market? Both of the market and UWM. Okay. Yes, I mean, a lot of it is dependent on interest rates. Right. So like the way I look at it in our focus is like how do we do $100,000,000,000 of purchase? Right? And then rebuise we did $96,000,000,000 UWM purchase this year, we have one of the most refi. Can we do $100,000,000,000 $150,000,000,000 of refi?

Possibly. If rates go up to 7.5, well, we'll do $20,000,000,000 to refi, $30,000,000,000 to refi, right? And so understand what the market and the tenure, that's why it's like literally where no one else will be able to tell you this, Derek, that like I can do $130,000,000,000 to $140,000,000,000 this year or I could do $260,000,000,000 this year.

And I could do it at 90 basis points of margin, I could do it at 130 points of margin. Like that's how wide of a range it is. But everyone else will say, oh, well, if the market turns and this happens and like they're we're actually prepared to do that right now. Like if the rates drop tomorrow, something happens, like we'll do we could do $60,000,000,000 in the second quarter. Right, at good margins. So that's how I'll ask back to the first question about expenses. It's not expenses, it's investments in the business.

Investments in the future. And while making these massive investments, from technology and operations and people, while making those massive bets, we're still profitable. Right? And very profitably don't count the MSR fluctuation, which I have no control of obviously. And so we feel really good about that. And I think we're really ready to eat. So 60%, I guess hard to predict the number. It's all dictated on rates. But for us, 60%, 65% purchase, 65% to 70% purchased in a higher rate and then it could flip to fifty-fifty could go sixty-forty refi if the rates drop far enough.

Got it. Thank you.

Commentary there. And just what's your current approach to managing servicing UPB levels relative to origination trends.

Yes. So we monitor it very closely. We understand the servicing asset very, very well. And we're still probably the only one out there originating at such a high level that our asset goes up. As a volume perspective with newer originations. But we look at all the time, we decide whether do we opportunistically sell we could go through the prostate area, we're going to retain it all and just double the service book over this year, right? And we could do that as well. There's a lot of things that we look at We like the asset in general, but at the same time, when people are going to pay us seven multiple, well, I'll sell it for seven multiple.

Right? And so we look at some of these numbers and sometimes people are looking at paying those numbers. And if they're not, then we retain it because we feel really good about the asset. And so it's a balancing act, understanding cash and cash consumption.

While at the same time building our servicing portfolio and helping our brokers continue to grow. So we feel good about where we're at right now.

And you can ask me like what the vision is, what the strategy is. I could tell you all that stuff and I could say, but tomorrow something could change.

And I'll modify it.

And that's how we look at it. We look at it every day because that's we're in the weeds of the business. Got it. Thank you for taking my questions.

Thank you. Our next question will come from the line of Bose George with KBW. Hey, good morning. Actually, just following up on that question on the MSR.

Mean, given that you guys issued debt, you obviously have a lot of cash on your balance sheet, a lot of liquidity you've paid down the warehouse line. Does that change how you might what you might do in terms of MSR sales or those two kind of independent decisions?

Everything is tied into it, right? So everything is part of the equation. But nothing drives the equation, right, besides the conversations, the data, understanding the marketplace. And so it's hard to answer the question, both like going through like what comes into the thing, we have a risk committee meet with everyone organizationally, make decisions on these things. And so it depends on the situation. I could give you the exact answer right now and then someone calls back and say, okay, we'll bump that that option to the MSR deal to this number and we'll say, okay, well, for an extra $30,000,000 in cash, we'll do it. And so all those things are coming to it. The nice part for us on the MSRs is we actually continuously make it. It's like we make it. So we originate no one else makes it at the levels we make it. So therefore, everyone else is trying to buy it and get something that we make. I can go make more. Right, anytime. So we go make more every single month, every single quarter where no one else originates the levers we do. And so we're constantly originating and making the MSR asset.

And therefore, we look at all aspects of it and make decisions on whether we sell or not. We can sell excess, but we replenish it every single month, every single day. Like the numbers are so it's not as much of a concern where other places are like, oh, they sold their MSRs or they're not selling. But our number moves materially based on how much we originate.

Okay. Yes, makes sense. And then actually going back to I think Andrew made that comment, dollars 100,000,000,000 you could originate without increasing fixed expenses. I was just curious, is there a good way to think about fixed versus variable in that sort of scenario?

UWM, not really. I mean, we're prepared fixed wise. Obviously, there are variable expense every loan as credit report costs and all these things go up all the time. But feel really good about and I know you're trying to figure out how to do a model, which I respect and understand, but we're in a really great position from a fixed expenses. We don't have as much like the fixed expenses operationally and then there's obviously variable on every file, but sometimes there's less variable expense if you will realize and a lot of these numbers hit the bottom line. And I think so although I can't show you each example from the month, but like the gain on sale margin that will go up and the volume that will go up is so excessively more than any expenses, fixed or variable that come on our balance sheet or come on our expense or come on our income statement that it's going to be a huge, huge difference in a positive way. And that's why we're prepared because if you miss that window, which is what everyone else does is they keep their expenses low and then the market moves, what happens, like look at 20 that stuff happened and UWM goes like we're able to make billion dollars plus in a quarter, right?

Like and so but if you're not prepared for that, like these things pass you by. And so prepared. There are going to be variable expenses that are a little more than normal if you do more volume, but it's not a big number relative it and it's going to be a huge amount of money hitting the bottom line, which is what we're prepared for.

Okay, makes sense. Thanks a lot. Thank you.

Our next question comes from the line of Brad Kupuzzi with Piper Sandler. Please go ahead.

Hi, thanks for taking my question. Just wanted to talk about if you guys had any updates on the dynamics playing out within the broker channel Obviously, some of your peers have been talking it up and you know, UWMC has a very strong hold on the channel, but was wondering if pricing has been rational and if you're seeing any increased competition? Yes. So the broker channel is winning. It's growing. And I think I know I don't know how long you've been doing it, Brad, but I know you've been to our office once before, you probably understand a little bit about the business. But like broker channel is growing. It's growing faster than I even thought it would grow, to be honest with you. UWM seemed that it's almost almost doubled in four years. It's crazy to even talk about I said it when we went public. And so you can go back and pull my roadshow and all the stuff and everyone else's roadshow everyone said they're going to focus on wholesale because it's growing. No one thought it would grow as much as I said it would and it has. And at the same time, everyone says they're going to get into it and I love it.

I love it when these guys try to come play with us, because it's only good for the brokers and at the same time they can't any time a broker uses one of the lenders, they just kind of say, oh my gosh, I can't use them again. And so it's okay. I like the company. We've not seen any increase in pricing competition to be honest with you. We are very clear. Our margins actually, as you saw, were up 20% year over year and we did more business over almost 3% more year over year. And so yes, everyone is coming for the wholesale channel. Everyone wants to be involved with the brokers, none of them are willing to do what it takes. And what it takes is technology, partnership, helping brokers win and grow and we are in that game all day every day. They're going to follow our margins. I tell you, we control it. I set the margins daily and we set them and everyone else follows us.

We are the leader and it's not close great for the competition. I think it's important that tell you that stuff so you can move their price targets up.

All that BS. You should probably move ours up too, by the way, because yours is a little low, but yourself. But anyways, like all that stuff is silliest.

Right? People want to come in, they've been saying it for years. We're going to be the number one wholesaler go back and pull it? We're going to be number one wholesale that we're going to take UWM UWM. We have almost 50% of the market. So we're excited about it. We love the competition, but the best part about the whole thing that I just went through is brokers are winning. Those loan officers, retail loan officers, they're leaving to join broker channels. Brokers are growing because they're cheaper, faster and easier. And with the new administration, it's only to help brokers even more. You watch out. It's going to help brokers grow and we're going to keep growing with Thanks. And then can you just talk about the interest rate derivative hedges you put on this year? Do you expect these hedges to continue in 2025? And are you guys have any external target on a hedge ratio?

Yes. No, those weren't really even hedges. The way I look at it is there's a lot stuff that we looked at with market volatility to understand while the election process is going on. And we pulled some of those we wanted to make sure we had some security and some safety on both ways, up and down during the volatility of the markets. And that's smart business and we'll continue to do that type of stuff. But we pulled that stuff off in December. And so we do not have that stuff tied to it. I don't look at them as hedges like me UWM said, but not how we looked at it. But we looked at it as protecting the business, understand the markets, understand volatility, who knew what would happen with presidential election along with other regulatory things. And so but we do not have those in place of December. After the election, we made a decision to not go forward with that. And at the same time, we can put them back on tomorrow and make different decisions as we meet all the time. But that's not part of the equation for 2025 at this point.

Thanks for taking my questions.

Thank you. Our next Our next question will come from the line of Doug Harter with UBS. Please go ahead. [indiscernible] Thanks. Hoping you could talk a little bit about your outlook for kind of the leverage UWM funding debt went up and kind of how you think about what is the level of equity you need to run this [indiscernible] Thanks, Doug. Appreciate the question. We look at all these things every day CFO, finance team, everyone's on top of all these details. Net worth is obviously important. We make income. We obviously pay a great dividend out to all our shareholders, which we'll continue to do. But you're talking about stuff that I don't think really impacts the business at the level that we should be talking about in this earnings call and go through of course we're going to meet all the metrics and all the different things. But building up capital is important. Having liquidity is the most important. And we have those things at UWM. We'll continue to have those things as we earn income We have access to getting more liquidity with lines of credit, as you know, selling MSRs. It seems that we're selling a lot of MSRs, and you make money on some of these because people are bidding being higher and higher numbers because the truth is we're the only ones originating them.

So in general UWM, all of our ratios are really strong. And we feel really good about where we stand. And we moderate every single month, quarter, however you want to think about it. And we're in really, really strong position, not only for this year, but future years as well. All right. Thank you, Matt UWM.

Our next question will come from the line of Jeff Adelson with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking my questions. Matt, last quarter UWM commented on some of the new changes coming through with the new administration in place today. Obviously, we're seeing a lot of news flow coming out each day with different changes at the various agencies like the CFPB. There's been talk of GSE reform, etcetera. Just maybe give us an update on your latest views here, what maybe you see coming out on the political front and how that flows to United UWM the broader mortgage industry?

Yes. No, I think it's all very positive to be honest with you. So President Trump's come in and done a lot of things he said he was going to do. I think he's put some really good people in place I think they're not confirmed yet, but the new FHFA Director who I think comes from the industry, which is a huge success for our industry.

New CFPB Director, which will with a different focus than what they had before, I think these things are massive, massive wins for our industry. And I'm extremely bullish on those things the next three or four years obviously with President Trump in place. President Trump's leading and doing things and doing all the things he said he had to do with making cuts and different things. I think it's all upside, all positive. The only thing that you question is how does it impact interest rates, which a lot of people want to talk about. And so if it impacts interest rates positively, then this is a bull run like you haven't seen probably since 2020, 2021. If it doesn't impact interest rates positively and interest rates stay where they are, well, it's still a positive uptick. My expenses will be lower. Certain spots, opportunities will be lower, because of some of these better leaders in place. And I'll just say, I don't want to mean disrespect to the past people, but quite honestly, there was not a great connection to the industry. And so so it's only better. The new FHFA Director will be better.

New HUD director's cap will be better. The new CFPB director McCurant will be better. All these things will be better than we had before. So anyone monitoring our industry will say, oh, the industry is going to have upside and better opportunities than it had the last four years. Now the last four years, we did a heck of a job. I feel pretty good about it. So if it's going to be better, I'm happy with it. And I think President Trump is doing good things and it's great to have a leader [indiscernible] and hopefully do good things for not only our industry, but America in general.

And just on the float strategy from here, I know you've already taken some recent action to increase that, but can you just maybe give us an update on the thinking for the rest of the year here? And would you guys be looking to maybe achieve some via acquisitions or other methods? Yes. No, I appreciate it. We look at everything. We look at everything all the time. How do we make things better? Getting more float out there is important. But at the same time, the stock price is so low. It's hard for me to sell or do anything at this stock price. It's just silliness. Even your price target is silly too.

I saw yours as well. But once again, we're going to do better.

We're going to keep winning. And people that buy into it and understand what UWM does will understand that and will continue to grow with us. And so yes, we will have more float. And I have plans and strategies around it.

That's first. Second, do we look at acquisitions? Yes, I look at everything. Is opportunities out there. People want to be part of our team. And then third, and finally is like UWM wins regardless of these things.

Right? Like people want to talk about the stock price and tease you guys a little bit about some of the stuff, but it doesn't really matter of day because we are winning every single month, every single quarter. Anyone that invests in UWM gets a massive return from the dividend and at the same time the growth that we're having. And so there's nobody that doesn't think that the industry is going to have a better four years than we had the last two or three, right? There's no one. I don't think there's a human being out there. So if you just understand that, that hey, the last three years have been the trough. There's no way the next four are going to be worse. That's factual. So we're going to grow, we're going to win, the stock price will grow, the float will grow. Opportunities will grow. UWM will make more money, brokers will grow, like it's all up sides, better politicians, better politics stuff, better regulatory, like all of those better, better, better, better. And so the way I look at it is all upside right now. Does that upside happen tomorrow? Or does it happen in three months, six months, twelve months, eighteen months, but it's all better than the last three years and there's no smart person on this call or in the room that will say that they don't think it'll be better in the next three to four years.

Our next question will come from the line of Mikael Gohmerman with Citizens. Please go ahead.

Hey, good morning. Thanks for taking my question.

Just to follow-up on an earlier theme, hypothetical scenario.

Supposing this bond rally continues down into the 4% range and maybe even down in that sweet spot you mentioned earlier of 3.75, How do you guys see the interplay between the origination side of your business and the servings servicing side of your business, specifically how that would affect servicing earnings valuations there? No, hey, great question. I love what you're thinking because we talk about that stuff a lot. In a hypothetical and positive and optimistic situation where the tenure drops to 400 or three seventy five and always then the rate drop with $2,500,000,000,000 $3,000,000,000,000 of borrowers are going to want to refinance and take advantage of while also making home loans more affordable for purchases, which is why I think it's a great thing for everybody. Yes, it's going to be massive. So first thing you'll run across, the only thing you're going to run the interplay between MSR valuations And originations is just a timing issue. So if that hypothetical rate drop happened March 29, you're going to have a huge write down of MSRs and you won't have the huge write up of originations until the next quarter. Now if that is on April 1, as an example, then there's going to be there's not going to be a big interplay.

It's going to be like, hey, we made $800,000,000 this quarter of originations and we had to write down a $500,000,000 of MSRs and it's like, okay, and you understand that what it is and you keep replenishing that MSR book. So that's how we look at it. But I look at it as a huge because volumes and margins will go up. Now other players back to my comment earlier, we talked about other players have that same dynamic. You've got a servicing book, but they're not prepared to do that $60,000,000,000 in the quarter at a higher margin be able to take advantage of it. So UWM kind of are going to get flat be flat across the board. We're prepared to double originations, make the profits huge, obviously have MS MSR write down, which once again I don't pay attention to because it doesn't really I can't run that I can't control that. I can control our business and be prepared for everything else. And so feel really good about it, but that's also why selling MSRs makes sense because you never know what's going to happen People don't like stone, I'm sorry, because they can't originate them, but we can originate them and we make them single day, so we feel good about that.

Great. Thanks, Matt. Best of luck going forward.

Hey, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. And that will wrap up the Q and A portion. I would like to turn the call back to Matt Ishpia for closing comments.

Well, thank you for joining. Hopefully, you have some valuable information. We look forward to talking to you next quarter. Lot of good things happening. We're very excited about what's happening at UWM UWM we appreciate those support and partnership for all of you guys.

Have a fantastic day.

This concludes today's conference call and you may now disconnect.